056 class FFL/corvette

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asif iqbal

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
antiterror13 said:
I don't think Barak-1 is much more effective than Chinese FL-3000N.

So if China really believe it's necessary, China would simply put more FL-3000N on 056 Corvette (i.e 2x 24 cells FL-3000N) instead of a short ranged VLS system
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I agree FL-2000N is a really good system
 
J

joshuatree

Captain
plawolf said:
The 056s are really meant as a green water combatant to patrol low threat theatres near China's shores to help free up the blue water fleet for long range operations. Realistically you would not expect 056s to venture outside of the first island chain.

Giving the 056s a medium range SAM capability adds very little to such a PLAN task force, and the chances that an 056 might find itself in need of medium range SAM capability when operating alone is extremely remote. That does not really justify the costs involved in adding a VLS capacity, especially if doing so involves removing existing features like the main gun.
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adeptitus said:
Remember that cost issue for Israeli is different from Chinese Navy, where the Chinese Navy have AAW DDG's, the Israelis only have corvettes.

Alternatively, the ASW missile could be launched from anti-ship missile canisters, like the Italian MILAS (which is basically a torpedo on top of a Otomat). If this is the case, then building a slightly larger 056 with 8 SSM canisters instead of 4 will probably do.
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Jeff Head said:
I just do not believe that is their intent with these vessels. So, I believe they can, at much lower cost, add some additional ASW capabilities without the need for that large expense, and in the waters they will operate in, not sacrifice anything with respect to their effectiveness or ability to defend themselves.
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Great feedback. I had thought about the Sa'ar V too but given the difference where the CN has frigates and destroyers, I concur that realistically putting in a VLS on the 056 is nil and overlapping with minimal gain. After this discussion, it seems to me the national standard for the smallest VLS system at ~3 m is a DOA standard as I can't picture that being used on a frigate like the 054A. Why if you have the next size up VLS that will fit on those vessels? So it's like the Boeing 787-3 design, all drafted up but DOA.

Now as for any further cheap improvements to enhance the 056's capability, putting ASM missiles in canisters like the AShM missiles ain't a bad idea at all. Assuming a product like this exists in the CN arsenal or one easily produced, that's not expensive at all since the canister system is another matured product deployed across many existing plaforms. With a slight hull increase in length, 8 canisters can be placed instead of the current 4. Then the space freed up without the need for torpedo tubes allows that section to be built with a higher roof line for a helo hangar. The hull length increase also provides new internal space for the fuel and ammo stores for the helo. Don't know if a TAS can fit in the existing lower stern portion but I am guessing that is cheaper than a bigger sonar up front.
 
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P

Preux

Junior Member
adeptitus said:
The Israeli Sa'ar V corvette is about 200 tons lighter than the 056, and it's equipped with 2 x 32 cell Barak-1 VLS. This was made possible because they designed the system to be small enough and light enough for a corvette. The smaller deck penetration requirement also made it possible for easy refitting to older warships. For example on the Indian Navy's Rajput (Kashin II) class, they were about to swap out the AK-630 mounts for 8-cell Barak VLS systems.

However, on the Israeli Sa'ar V, it was still necessary to build an elevated platform to accommodate the VLS system. I read that they've upgraded the system to the newer Barak-8, which is a much heavier and longer missile. The Barak-8 is "medium range plus" at 70 km range and gives the Israeli corvette area air-defense capability. But I'm curious about how it's installed on the corvette, and if the Israelis had to reduce the number of VLS cells to accommodate the much larger and heavier missile.

Remember that cost issue for Israeli is different from Chinese Navy, where the Chinese Navy have AAW DDG's, the Israelis only have corvettes. Now, if we want to discuss installing VLS on the 056 for purpose of ASROC type weapons, then we need to consider the length and weight of such missile, which is certainly gong to be even bigger and heavier than the Barak-8:

Barak-1 SAM: 2.1 m length, 98 kg weight
Barak-8 SAM: 4.5 m length, 275 kg weight
VL-ASROC: 5.1 meters length, 748 kg weight
MILAS: 6 m length, 800 kg weight
K-ASROC ("Red Shark"): 5.7 m length, 820 kg weight
91RTE2: 8.9 m length, 1,300 kg weight

The 054A has VLS launched ASW missile, but we do not know the specs. If they followed Italy's route and the missile is a torpedo on top of a YJ missile, then it probably weights more than the original YJ missile.

Alternatively, the ASW missile could be launched from anti-ship missile canisters, like the Italian MILAS (which is basically a torpedo on top of a Otomat). If this is the case, then building a slightly larger 056 with 8 SSM canisters instead of 4 will probably do.

If the goal is to improve the 056 ASW capability, we'd also need to look at the ASW helicopter, which is probably the most effective ASW weapon deployed from a ship. What kind of helicopter can the 056 (or ASW variant of) handle? The Italian Comandanti class corvette (with telescopic hanger) is about 100 ton larger and said to be able to accommodate the NH90, which is similar in weight to Ka-27/28. But you need more hanger and storage space to accommodate all the support equipment, fuel, munitions, etc. for the ASW helicopter. So I don't think you can get away with a small increase to the existing 056 hull.
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The Israeli Sa'ar V is also a top heavy piece of shit and a textbook case of what not to do in naval architecture.

Seriously, the procurement and design process of the Sa'ar V resembled that of the Swedish ship Vasa. That the first ship didn't sink directly it left port is a testimony to the skills of US shipbuilders. It is not a good comparison to any other sanely designed ship. No other corvette of this class carried anywhere near this much armament, and there are good reasons for that.

Oh, and there is no way they are replacing the Barak with the Barak 8 on a one for one basis - the 8 is some three times heavier and wider than the Barak...
 
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Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
The build of the Type 056 light frigates is simply amazing. The first was launched in May of 2012. By August of this year (2013) 15 vessels had been launched. Eight are now in service with seven more either in trials or fitting out.


Type056-Build.jpg

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My last update to this table was in August. I expect perhaps two more have been launched by now, so that number could well be 17 vessels launched from five facilities in 17 months...and average of one per month.

When you consider this in context of the Type 052C/D builds, the Type 054A builds, the SSN builds, the SSK builds, etc. The overall result is a very, very rapidly modernizing naval force.
 
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kwaigonegin

kwaigonegin

Colonel
Preux said:
The Israeli Sa'ar V is also a top heavy piece of shit and a textbook case of what not to do in naval architecture.
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yeah, hate to admit it but you're not the first who've said it. I've heard people in the industry saying something similar which is surprising since Israel generally has top notch equipment and spec their stuff appropriately even if they are not the actual builders like in this case.

It's one of those class of ships that looks very good on paper but in reality just not that good. They try to crammed way too much weaponry and sophistication into a small keel. They are an improvement over the 4 or 4.5 however they are definitely topweighted.
 
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