055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

[optionsss]

Benefits of a large frigate are in missions that:
-055 is oversized or unsuitable for.
-052D is unsuitable for.

Neither 055 nor 052D are really suitable to carry a significant complement of unmanned vehicles, and both are measurably tilted towards AAW and strike. Furthermore, there is probably quite a lot of room to improve ASW capability of either.

Appearence of hypothetical 054B (together with the existing huge fleet of 054A) may free 052 and 055 fleets for pure fleet operations, where those are the most valuable.

7000ton is kinda the minimum weight for a all purpose platform. introduce new capabilities will mean compromising other areas, same thing for anything smaller.

a 052D commanding a group of 054a is much better. if you need UAV capabilities, just add a 071 or 075.

the point of small frigate is price, a 6000 ton ship with advanced sensor is not going to be much cheaper and a compromised design choice, which PLAN doesn't need.

 

[Gloire_bb]

if you need UAV capabilities, just add a 071 or 075.

UAVs aren't everything however, especially big ones. Furthermore, 071/075, in the end, are amphibious ships first.

The current trend in multirole warships is spacious, universal hangars for helicopters, rotary UAVs, assault boats, USVs and USuVs.
They are able to not just store and control them, but rapidly deploy/gather them, even on the move and in fresh weather.

Basically, it's a stand-in platform for those craft that can't be used from afar. Even in contested waters, when necessary.

 

[AndrewS]

Benefits of a large frigate are in missions that:
-055 is oversized or unsuitable for.
-052D is unsuitable for.

Neither 055 nor 052D are really suitable to carry a significant complement of unmanned vehicles, and both are measurably tilted towards AAW and strike. Furthermore, there is probably quite a lot of room to improve ASW capability of either.

Appearence of hypothetical 054B (together with the existing huge fleet of 054A) may free 052 and 055 fleets for pure fleet operations, where those are the most valuable.

I would actually look at it from a [cost versus mission] perspective rather than [ship size versus mission]
After all, that is what actually matters when designing the fleet composition.

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And what sort of UAVs do you envisage destroyers/frigates actually carrying?

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And I don't see much difference in ASW capability between the Type-055, Type-052D or Type-054A/B
All would have a Bow sonar, Towed Array, Variable Depth Sonar and at least 1 helicopter anyway.

Plus I don't see a huge difference in cost between a Type-052D and a notional Type-054B either

 

[sndef888]

I think we're going to continue seeing 052D/054A built for near deployments like SCS/ECS for quite some time. The combo of 052D and 054A for aaw and asw is just too cost effective and perfectly suited for near deployments

But I could potentially see a 055 + 7000 ton frigate combo for blue water operations, such as show of force/piracy ops in indian ocean, pacific as the extra tonnage will be very beneficial. 052D could also be added to this combo for carrier ops

 

[Gloire_bb]

And what sort of UAVs do you envisage destroyers/frigates actually carrying?

UAV: small and medium rotary wing: inspection, reconnaissance&artillery spotting, stand-off fights against small and unmanned craft, carrying dipping sonars/sonobuoys; off-platform EW, onboard AEW&OtH targeting.
+suicide drones.

Boats, Helicopters: no explanation necessary I think;

USuVs: persistent off-board sensors - ASW and Mine countermeasure craft (intermediate sensor nodes), false targets&off-platform EW;

USVs: ASW and Mine countermeasure craft(both expensive 'sensor craft' and effectors);

And I don't see much difference in ASW capability between the Type-055, Type-052D or Type-054A/B
All would have a Bow sonar, Towed Array, Variable Depth Sonar and at least 1 helicopter anyway.

The point here may be not so much "more" capability as having 'enough' of it on a cheaper hull. AAW hulls will probably never be cheap, and balanced 055s will be even more expensive.
On top of that - significant space for offboard platforms, higher silent speeds(IEPS), more ammo for ASW and ASuW; maybe anti-torpedoes. Ideally - ensuring one-two heavy ASW helicopters on top of the list above (Eurofrigates carry Merlins, not just MH-60s).

 

[optionsss]

UAVs aren't everything however, especially big ones. Furthermore, 071/075, in the end, are amphibious ships first.

The current trend in multirole warships is spacious, universal hangars for helicopters, rotary UAVs, assault boats, USVs and USuVs.
They are able to not just store and control them, but rapidly deploy/gather them, even on the move and in fresh weather.

Basically, it's a stand-in platform for those craft that can't be used from afar. Even in contested waters, when necessa

a ship can and should be multipurpose, and for deploy multiple UAVs, USV, larger amp ships are much better. PLAN have a lot of LPD to deploy.

I am not sure what PLAN wants to replace 054a with, but base on the additional 054a order, I don't think current generation of 6000 ton NATO frigate is it.

I do think next replacement of 052D could use more hangar space for 2 helicopter, so a little bigger would be nice.

 

[Gloire_bb]

a ship can and should be multipurpose, and for deploy multiple UAVs, USV, larger amp ships are much better. PLAN have a lot of LPD to deploy.

For example, in a certain event just a few days ago, a ship in position of one certain cruiser 'could have' been deploying MCM/USV craft to clean up coastal minefields.
That place, as we saw, wasn't really a good place for a large, overly expensive, vulnerable asset (which LPD most certainly is). Of course, you can bring escorts with her - but escorts will be basically a whole small fleet(!) for a task any of her escorts alone should've been able to perform.

Furthermore, LPD is neither good at deploying things on move, nor does its well deck like being opened in a bad weather.

I am not sure what PLAN wants to replace 054a with, but base on the additional 054a order, I don't think current generation of 6000 ton NATO frigate is it.

I don't think 054a needs replacement yet. And the additional frigate batch may simply mean that 054b isn't ready yet, nor it is expected to be for a few years to come.
Japan and now the US are building new frigates at a significant pace in the meantime, so new ships are still necessary.

 

[AndrewS]

UAV: small and medium rotary wing: inspection, reconnaissance&artillery spotting, stand-off fights against small and unmanned craft, carrying dipping sonars/sonobuoys; off-platform EW, onboard AEW&OtH targeting.
+suicide drones.

I see most of these requirements as not required. Inspection and recon shouldn't be done with small UAV at close range. That is far too late. Artillery spotting UAV can be done with a separate ship. There is no need to put that on a Frigate or Destroyer.

Stand off fights against Small and unmanned craft can be done with a larger and longer ranges Helicopter.

ASW, EW, Sonobuoys, dipping sonar's, ISR are better off with a helicopter

Boats, Helicopters: no explanation necessary I think;

USuVs: persistent off-board sensors - ASW and Mine countermeasure craft (intermediate sensor nodes), false targets&off-platform EW;

USVs: ASW and Mine countermeasure craft(both expensive 'sensor craft' and effectors);

Remember that these USVs and USuVs are relatively autonomous. Personally I think the next generation of ships should have a modular mission bay incorporated

 

[Yellow Submarine]

UAV: small and medium rotary wing: inspection, reconnaissance&artillery spotting, stand-off fights against small and unmanned craft, carrying dipping sonars/sonobuoys; off-platform EW, onboard AEW&OtH targeting.
+suicide drones.

Boats, Helicopters: no explanation necessary I think;

USuVs: persistent off-board sensors - ASW and Mine countermeasure craft (intermediate sensor nodes), false targets&off-platform EW;

USVs: ASW and Mine countermeasure craft(both expensive 'sensor craft' and effectors);


The point here may be not so much "more" capability as having 'enough' of it on a cheaper hull. AAW hulls will probably never be cheap, and balanced 055s will be even more expensive.
On top of that - significant space for offboard platforms, higher silent speeds(IEPS), more ammo for ASW and ASuW; maybe anti-torpedoes. Ideally - ensuring one-two heavy ASW helicopters on top of the list above (Eurofrigates carry Merlins, not just MH-60s).

I think a 7000 ton ASW focused platform, something along the lines of the old Spruance class DD, would fill a vital niche for a large blue water navy like the PLAN.

I envision a ship with a 76mm gun, 48-64 VLS cells loaded with HQ-16 medium range SAM's and CY-5 ASW missiles, 8 ASCM, facilities for two medium or 1-2 heavy ASW helicopters with room for a few small UAV's, torpedo tubes, point defense systems for short range anti-air/anti-missile defense (HQ-10 and/or Type 1130), a top of the line sonar suite (bow mounted sonar, towed array and VDS) and extensive high end quieting. It would be focused on blue water ASW, with secondary ASuW and medium range area air defense capabilities. A high end Aegis style radar/air defense system would not be needed because such a ship would normally operate in a task force with dedicated AAW ships such as the Type 055 or Type 052D and in many cases as part of a carrier group.

 

[optionsss]

For example, in a certain event just a few days ago, a ship in position of one certain cruiser 'could have' been deploying MCM/USV craft to clean up coastal minefields.
That place, as we saw, wasn't really a good place for a large, overly expensive, vulnerable asset (which LPD most certainly is). Of course, you can bring escorts with her - but escorts will be basically a whole small fleet(!) for a task any of her escorts alone should've been able to perform.

Furthermore, LPD is neither good at deploying things on move, nor does its well deck like being opened in a bad weather.


I don't think 054a needs replacement yet. And the additional frigate batch may simply mean that 054b isn't ready yet, nor it is expected to be for a few years to come.
Japan and now the US are building new frigates at a significant pace in the meantime, so new ships are still necessar

for those operations, a dicicated anti mine ship with 052d and 054a escort would be much better.

PLAN is a large navy and it's better for China to build dedicated ships and escort them with protection, rather than hoping a 6000ton ship is going to do it all. Leave that to the smaller EU countries.