055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

[antiterror13]

if you read carefully, I said "at least as capable as the British Type 45"

It wasn't my intention to compare 052D vs Type 45. Because the specs of 052D still secret and we know it should be more advanced than 052C ..... thats why I said "at least as capable ....."

Anyway your analysis is astute. Thanks

 

[Blitzo]

Yes I see -- and I'm sorry if I came across as rude in that post, but I still think a comparison with Type 45 is a bit off.

I think ships like Type 45, horizon/forbin, fremm and 052C can all be compared quite convincingly. They are all ships with PARs, and they only carry SAMs in their VLS cells. To an extent Saschen can also be put in this category, and also akizuki if you like considering it will only carry SM-2 and ESSM at this stage.

Ships like burke and her derivatives (including atago, kongo, sejong, and hobart) however are armed with VLS that are far more multirole than the European SYLVER and 052C's VLS. Not only can they be fitted with long range SAMs, but also quad packed with shorter range SAMs, ASROC type weapons, LACMs, and AShMs if need be. 052D naturally fits in the latter category better, so I think a comparison with burkes is more warranted (and a comparison with Type 45 just serves to reinforce the daring class's hype, when in reality I don't think there's any reason to suggest it's significantly better than 052C or horizon)

We should also note that 052D sits in the unique position of having APAR and active radar homing SAMs (a feature currently seen as defining in the euro frigates) combined with the flexibility of a multirole SAM (which the burke derivatives offer with Mk 41 VLS).

 

[weig2000]

Excellent summary post!

With all the latest news updates, speculations/rumors, and debate/discussion on arcane technical details, a short survey/summary post like this one is very illuminating and helpful to members new and old.

We need more of these, once in a while, from very knowledgeable SDF members. I think Jeff Head has also done an excellent job in doing so (e.g., his PLAN Carrier Training Facility post). It makes SDF such a great community.

Yes I see -- and I'm sorry if I came across as rude in that post, but I still think a comparison with Type 45 is a bit off.

I think ships like Type 45, horizon/forbin, fremm and 052C can all be compared quite convincingly. They are all ships with PARs, and they only carry SAMs in their VLS cells. To an extent Saschen can also be put in this category, and also akizuki if you like considering it will only carry SM-2 and ESSM at this stage.

Ships like burke and her derivatives (including atago, kongo, sejong, and hobart) however are armed with VLS that are far more multirole than the European SYLVER and 052C's VLS. Not only can they be fitted with long range SAMs, but also quad packed with shorter range SAMs, ASROC type weapons, LACMs, and AShMs if need be. 052D naturally fits in the latter category better, so I think a comparison with burkes is more warranted (and a comparison with Type 45 just serves to reinforce the daring class's hype, when in reality I don't think there's any reason to suggest it's significantly better than 052C or horizon)

We should also note that 052D sits in the unique position of having APAR and active radar homing SAMs (a feature currently seen as defining in the euro frigates) combined with the flexibility of a multirole SAM (which the burke derivatives offer with Mk 41 VLS).

 

[adeptitus]

The EU SYLVER VLS is capable of handling a variety of missiles, including quad-packed SR-SAM and cruise missiles. But only if the customer decides to pay for these options, and the ship can handle the space/weight requirements.

Until the "052D" launches and we get more information, it's a bit premature to say what the ship's VLS will actually be equipped with, and what's "provisioned for but not fitted with..."

 

[FarkTypeSoldier]

The EU SYLVER VLS is capable of handling a variety of missiles, including quad-packed SR-SAM and cruise missiles. But only if the customer decides to pay for these options, and the ship can handle the space/weight requirements.

Until the "052D" launches and we get more information, it's a bit premature to say what the ship's VLS will actually be equipped with, and what's "provisioned for but not fitted with..."

I fully agree... it is way too early to speculate the VLS of this vessel right now, thus it is better to stuck to current technology that PLAN possesses.

But the PLAN is constantly moving and improving on its weaknesses, as they seek a much capable ship in the future, they might be working on a dual/triple usage launcher for the VLS now - highly dependable on it's strategic demands.

 

[Blitzo]

The EU SYLVER VLS is capable of handling a variety of missiles, including quad-packed SR-SAM and cruise missiles. But only if the customer decides to pay for these options, and the ship can handle the space/weight requirements.

Until the "052D" launches and we get more information, it's a bit premature to say what the ship's VLS will actually be equipped with, and what's "provisioned for but not fitted with..."

Fair enough. At the very least SYLVER can be fitted with the naval SCALP missile and quad packed with crotale.

But there are some logical deductions we can make with 052D, for instance I think it's VLS will almost certainly be fitted with an AShM of some sort given the rear VLS displaced the 052Cs slanted launchers

 

[FarkTypeSoldier]

Guys,

One curious question: In modern destroyers from both Western and Asian countries, I notice lesser and lesser classes of DDG having no aft gun, being replaced by a CIWS. Is it a trend or due to practical usages?

Imho, I think replacing aft gun with a CIWS does give anti-air or antisurface a great advantage? What do you reckon?

 

[SinoSoldier]

Fair enough. At the very least SYLVER can be fitted with the naval SCALP missile and quad packed with crotale.

But there are some logical deductions we can make with 052D, for instance I think it's VLS will almost certainly be fitted with an AShM of some sort given the rear VLS displaced the 052Cs slanted launchers

There was a paper released about the VLS confirming that it can fire all sorts of missiles and adopt both hot/cold launch. Yin Zhuo also stated that the YJ18 is possibly already integrated with the Type 052D.

 

[Blitzo]

There was a paper released about the VLS confirming that it can fire all sorts of missiles and adopt both hot/cold launch. Yin Zhuo also stated that the YJ18 is possibly already integrated with the Type 052D.

Yep, it was a MIL STD, and it is as good as confirmation in this case.
But practically, unless all the software and hardware is fitted in the ship to fire the munition in question, at this stage it only has a "provision for" X and Y missile. That said, the first 052D hasn't even finished fitting out yet.

Guys,

One curious question: In modern destroyers from both Western and Asian countries, I notice lesser and lesser classes of DDG having no aft gun, being replaced by a CIWS. Is it a trend or due to practical usages?

Imho, I think replacing aft gun with a CIWS does give anti-air or antisurface a great advantage? What do you reckon?

i think spruance/ticonderoga are the last western destroyers to be equipped with two main guns both forward and aft. It's not that modern ships are replacing a second gun with ciws, but rather removing it completely. Their CIWS fit hasn't really changed, although some guns can also work as ciws (such as the two 76mm gun on horizon class).

The lack of an aft main gun is more because modern ships don't emphasize shore bombardment very much, I think. The sheer space which a main gun takes up can also be used to fit more VLS instead, or even to remove it to make the ship smaller overall. Zumwalt is the first ship in a long time to feature two large main guns.

 

[SinoSoldier]

Yep, it was a MIL STD, and it is as good as confirmation in this case.
But practically, unless all the software and hardware is fitted in the ship to fire the munition in question, at this stage it only has a "provision for" X and Y missile. That said, the first 052D hasn't even finished fitting out yet.



i think spruance/ticonderoga are the last western destroyers to be equipped with two main guns both forward and aft. It's not that modern ships are replacing a second gun with ciws, but rather removing it completely. Their CIWS fit hasn't really changed, although some guns can also work as ciws (such as the two 76mm gun on horizon class).

The lack of an aft main gun is more because modern ships don't emphasize shore bombardment very much, I think. The sheer space which a main gun takes up can also be used to fit more VLS instead, or even to remove it to make the ship smaller overall. Zumwalt is the first ship in a long time to feature two large main guns.

Unless the ship is a test vehicle then there really is no point in limiting the potential of the VLS. The "universal" aspect of its weapons is arguably the greatest change imparted to the ship's capabilities.