055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

[Blitzo]

Yeah but do the Chinese really have to mock up that much of upper structure? see the others only mockup the major bit, this the Chinese did from the forward VLS well all the way to the aft, probably where the helicopter hanger should be.

Actually they only constructed the upper portion of the forward superstructure and what seems to be the foundation of the rear mast, everything else is not actually a mock up of the actual ship. I.e.: no helicopter hangar or bow deck or whatever are actually present. They built an elevated platform that reached where those areas would be on the real ship, but that is only a platform, not a mock up of the bow to the aft.

And even if they did, well big whoop. Maybe that way they can give the initial batch of sailors who will take the first 055 a more physical feel for the ship, who knows.


Btw, I'm not sure if you meant to do so, but your post gives off the vibe that any difference in the way that china and others do things means china must only be doing it differently due to some deficiency.

 

[Blitzo]

They are definitely slanted. The front 6x6 section is slanted 3 to port and 3 to starboard. The rear 2x6 section is slanted one each to port and starboard. And the fact that they are slanted is a big testament to the concern the PLAN and earlier the Russian navy had for the reliability of its S-300 and HQ-9 missile motors, since slanting in this manner essentially obligates the launched missile to targets only in its own half of the battlespace, and is therefore not truly a 360 degree VLS.

Well I agree that it most likely looks slanted, but I'd be cautious about making a claim that a missile fired on one side won't be able to target something coming in from the other cause that is another discussion entirely.

The two other possible answers to the non-slanted CCL system are 1. they have plans for a big missile and have no other choice, and/or 2. they have confidence in SOME but not necessarily all of their missiles. Or more specifically the missile motors. Not so much the cold launch mechanisms, which I would expect to be fairly mature by now.

Heh, if we want to flip it the other way, maybe PLAN test their missile motors more rigorously and thus are confident enough to use them in a non slanted cold launch manner

Or maybe having examined the variety of cold launched missiles in the PLA at large and finding a negligible incidence of missile motors not firing, they decided the benefits far outweighed the risks.

 

[nameless]

No, I said it was inefficient because this separate gas injection setup is not seen or needed on a system like the Mark 41. Or on the 052C VLS. Or the 054A VLS for that matter. At least now your tune is finally "what others have said", and you aren't still accusing me of being the one to make up the idea of the separate gas system, after I showed you totoro's post with a link and bolded script just to make it painfully clear for you. Honestly I don't know why I even bother with you, since it is obvious you have come raging through this thread without understanding what anybody is saying, even yourself.

Again he did not say it was inefficient, you did. He did not claim that the gas injection was so far away that it would be inefficient, you did. He did not mention such a flawed system was on the type 055, you did. You were responding to me calling out your flawed logic on you unreasonable comparisons. What others have said and what you have said are very different things. You obviously can not argue so you keep grasping for straws.

 

[Solaris]

Heh, if we want to flip it the other way, maybe PLAN test their missile motors more rigorously and thus are confident enough to use them in a non slanted cold launch manner

Or maybe having examined the variety of cold launched missiles in the PLA at large and finding a negligible incidence of missile motors not firing, they decided the benefits far outweighed the risks.

We will not know the answers to these for a while, if ever. I guess we'll just have to see.

Again he did not say it was inefficient, you did.

Correct, I said it. And it is. A separate gas injection system that no other ship VLS setup uses or needs is definitely an inefficient use of space compared to the others.

He did not claim that the gas injection was so far away that it would be inefficient, you did.

Neither of us made this claim. You are the only one making this claim. The inefficiency myself and bltizo have been talking about this entire thread is in regards to internal volume, which this setup requires more of, not in regards to some kind of physical distance of the gas system from the missile system resulting in some kind of inefficiency. Get a clue! Seriously I cannot tell if you are actually this slow or you are just trying to troll me for fun. Did you not read any of the other posts between myself and bltizo or are you just skipping to my posts so you can find material to try and flame with?

He did not mention such a flawed system was on the type 055, you did.

Neither of us made this claim. You are the only one making this claim. Totoro mentioned this setup as a POTENTIAL candidate system in the 055 because he likes the idea of a separate gas system. I responded that this was not a good idea for the 055 (or for any ship for that matter) because it would be an inefficient use of space. After that, you barged in like a bull in a china shop.

You were responding to me calling out your flawed logic on you unreasonable comparisons. What others have said and what you have said are very different things. You obviously can not argue so you keep grasping for straws.

I think it's obvious by now that the only one with flawed logic here is yourself. Please have the decency and maturity to admit so.

 

[getready]

Actually they only constructed the upper portion of the forward superstructure and what seems to be the foundation of the rear mast, everything else is not actually a mock up of the actual ship. I.e.: no helicopter hangar or bow deck or whatever are actually present. They built an elevated platform that reached where those areas would be on the real ship, but that is only a platform, not a mock up of the bow to the aft.

And even if they did, well big whoop. Maybe that way they can give the initial batch of sailors who will take the first 055 a more physical feel for the ship, who knows.


Btw, I'm not sure if you meant to do so, but your post gives off the vibe that any difference in the way that china and others do things means china must only be doing it differently due to some deficiency.

He is just one of the naysayers. Reminds me of the absolute negativity all the time from a few "狗粮" I've encountered in some forums but of course not to the same degree.

 

[nameless]

Correct, I said it. And it is. A separate gas injection system that no other ship VLS setup uses or needs is definitely an inefficient use of space compared to the others.

So you are admitting that it was basically a straw man argument.

Neither of us made this claim. You are the only one making this claim. The inefficiency myself and bltizo have been talking about this entire thread is in regards to internal volume, which this setup requires more of, not in regards to some kind of physical distance of the gas system from the missile system resulting in some kind of inefficiency. Get a clue! Seriously I cannot tell if you are actually this slow or you are just trying to troll me for fun. Did you not read any of the other posts between myself and bltizo or are you just skipping to my posts so you can find material to try and flame with?

Your own words, sure not about location at all.

"then most definitely there is much greater space inefficiency since the Mark 41 does not require such a separate system, and neither for that matter does the 052C's cold launch system, since IIRC its gas injection system is located at the center of each 'cylinder'. "

Neither of us made this claim. You are the only one making this claim. Totoro mentioned this setup as a POTENTIAL candidate system in the 055 because he likes the idea of a separate gas system. I responded that this was not a good idea for the 055 (or for any ship for that matter) because it would be an inefficient use of space. After that, you barged in like a bull in a china shop.

Where did he say that it was a potential candidate system on the type 055 and that he wants it on there? It is purely your assertion. Besides I don't think he gets to decide what the potential candidate systems are on the 055, no offense to him.

I think it's obvious by now that the only one with flawed logic here is yourself. Please have the decency and maturity to admit so.

You are the one making all these claims without proof, you don't even provide any evidence so who needs to be mature here?

I think a person of at least average intelligence would find it reasonable to conclude that his mention of this potential system in the 055 DDG thread is evidence of his desire to see this system in the 055. I don't think you want me to speak for your level of brainpower, but I know at least that bltizo has come to the same conclusion about totoro's comments that I did. Again, here is what he said:

He was referring to ships in general, please learn some basic English.

I suppose you think that when he said "may be used on ship launchers as well" earlier in this 055 thread, he was actually referring to the Kolkata class ship. Or maybe the Daring class. lol

lol no I have never said that, just one more baseless assertion.

They are definitely slanted. The front 6x6 section is slanted 3 to port and 3 to starboard. The rear 2x6 section is slanted one each to port and starboard. And the fact that they are slanted is a big testament to the concern the PLAN and earlier the Russian navy had for the reliability of its S-300 and HQ-9 missile motors, since slanting in this manner essentially obligates the launched missile to targets only in its own half of the battlespace, and is therefore not truly a 360 degree VLS.

Care to back it up with facts? or is it your pattern of making groundless claims.

 

[Solaris]

I can't believe you have thick enough skin to continue even as it's clear that you are hopelessly clueless here....

So you are admitting that it was basically a straw man argument.

Do you even understand what a "straw man argument" is? Totoro made a comment in the 055 thread about a cold launch system that has a separate gas system that he presumably likes and would like to see inside the 055. I responded that this would be a bad idea, for the reasons I already mentioned. Now please explain to me where the straw man argument is.

Your own words, sure not about location at all.

"then most definitely there is much greater space inefficiency since the Mark 41 does not require such a separate system, and neither for that matter does the 052C's cold launch system, since IIRC its gas injection system is located at the center of each 'cylinder'. "

You are not sure about location because I never mentioned location. Why did I not mention location? Because it is unimportant to the point, other than that it lies somewhere that is external to the missile system. And what is the point? The fact that this hypothetical system uses more space than the other known systems. The location of this extra space (the gas system) is irrelevant and unimportant. What is important is the fact that there would be extra space required for the separate gas system, NOT that the gas system is somehow far away from the missile system resulting in some kind of hypothetical inefficiency (what would be the "inefficiency" in this case, anyway?) I even make mention of the 052C VLS's gas system and how it is entirely contained within the cylinder of the launcher, meaning the missile tubes and the gas system are part of the same mechanism, as a contrast to the separated system that totoro proposed.

Where did he say that it was a potential candidate system on the type 055 and that he wants it on there? It is purely your assertion. Besides I don't think he gets to decide what the potential candidate systems are on the 055, no offense to him.

I think a person of at least average intelligence would find it reasonable to conclude that his mention of this potential system in the 055 DDG thread is evidence of his desire to see this system in the 055. I don't think you want me to speak for your level of brainpower, but I know at least that bltizo has come to the same conclusion about totoro's comments that I did. Again, here is what he said:

both s300 and hq9 canisters on tel vehicles use half a meter longer canister than the length of missiles inside. While i don't have data concerning where exactly the whole cold launch mechanism is, it would seem logical that, even if it is not all contained within those half a meter of difference, that it is modular enough that part of it can be placed away from the launch tubes themselves on the TELs. And if so, similar approach may be used on ship launchers as well.

I suppose you think that when he said "may be used on ship launchers as well" earlier in this 055 thread, he was actually referring to the Kolkata class ship. Or maybe the Daring class. lol

 

[tphuang]

I wish the 128 VLS is true, but since i got this information a year ago, i cannot assure that it will be the exact number they are planning to install now.

this information has basically been around for several years now. 052D was already launched last year. Do you have any additional information? Seems like nothing you got was confidential.

 

[tphuang]

solaris and nameless, I think this CCL discussion has dragged on long enough. Wrap it up guys or I will have to start deleting posts.

 

[Blitzo]

Back on topic guys...

Some nice 055 CGs by that same fellow who did the ones a few pages back. Firs posted by Popeye in the CG and PS thread...