055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

[jobjed]

It's strange that your definition of China's "normal" displacement requires a standard displacement which you claim China doesn't use, which I find hilarious. As a Chinese that likes to co-opt Western terms and add "Chinese characteristics" to them, you should know all about co-opting Western definitions.

Not my definition, pop3's, which is also the PLAN's definition.

By not "using" standard displacement, I mean they never give their vessels' displacements in that measurement, only normal. It doesn't mean they don't have that definition in their vocabulary. Also, pop3 didn't define "normal displacement" such that it needs "standard displacement", he defined every type of displacement categorisation in terms of the ship's status and load. This is the complete synopsis:

Empty: Complete installation of ship-borne systems and nothing else. No consumables, no people, nothing except the stuff that's bolted down.

Standard: Everything installed plus all consumables and crew except for fuel and water. Munitions, food, etc. are included.

Normal: Everything installed plus all consumables and crew, and 50% fuel and water.

Full: Everything installed plus all consumables, crew, and fuel + water.

Max: Don't fill more than this or the ship sinks.


Also, this is what I said:

China uses whatever's suitable to her needs including a lot of foreign ideas. Some needs are better served by her own methods like PLAN-specific definition of "normal displacement."

 

[Blitzo]

Or... maybe when he says 10,500, 12,000, and 13,500 he actually means what he says, and him using "万吨级" is in reference to the first number only.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but IMO it is more unlikely than the hypothesis that jobjed, latenlazy and I put forward.

If "万吨级" were a reference to what 055's standard displacement of 10,500 tons might be, then I would expect it to be more precise in specifying what load "万吨级" refers to. More importantly, I would also expect the word "一" in front of it as well if he wanted to refer to a more specific displacement under a given load condition, rather than as a symbolic and catchy phrase to refer to a specific displacement under a given load condition.

It's strange that your definition of China's "normal" displacement (that is allegedly different from Western normal displacement) requires a standard displacement which you claim China also doesn't use, which I find hilarious. As a Chinese that likes to co-opt Western terms and add "Chinese characteristics" to them, you should know all about co-opting Western definitions.

FYI, it is pop3's definition of what China's displacement system is, not jobjed's.

 

[Iron Man]

Not my definition, pop3's, which is also the PLAN's definition.

By not "using" standard displacement, I mean they never give their vessels' displacements in that measurement, only normal. It doesn't mean they don't have that definition in their vocabulary. Also, pop3 didn't define "normal displacement" such that it needs "standard displacement", he defined every type of displacement categorisation in terms of the ship's status and load.

China uses whatever's suitable to her needs including a lot of foreign ideas. Some needs are better served by her own methods like PLAN-specific definition of "normal displacement."

That's fine, then, if that is his definition. Even then his normal displacement does need standard displacement as a reference to add 50% fuel and water weight to for the purpose of calculation. Even then it seems strange to have 3,000 tons of fuel and water as a full load, especially these days when every large warship is going to have at least one and often two desalination plants on board. As I mentioned before, maybe it is possible that these weights are from an outdated preliminary estimate that more reflects the large 186L/23B measurements than what we are currently seeing.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but IMO it is more unlikely than the hypothesis that jobjed, latenlazy and I put forward.

If "万吨级" were a reference to what 055's standard displacement of 10,500 tons might be, then I would expect it to be more precise in specifying what load "万吨级" refers to. More importantly, I would also expect the word "一" in front of it as well if he wanted to refer to a more specific displacement under a given load condition, rather than as a symbolic and catchy phrase to refer to a specific displacement under a given load condition.

If he had actually wanted to be very precise he would have included that 500 tons as well, so I don't see that the lack of "一" takes away from his potential use of "万吨级" as a reference to the standard displacement of the 055.

 

[Blitzo]

If he had actually wanted to be very precise he would have included that 500 tons as well, so I don't see that the lack of "一" takes away from his potential use of "万吨级" as a reference to the standard displacement of the 055.

You're right, he would have included 500 tons if he wanted to be more precise.

I think that is more supportive of the position that latenlazy, jobjed and I hold though? That is to say, the fact that the phrase "万吨级" is so broad and vague, suggests to me it is unlikely to be meant as a reference to a standard displacement.

 

[Iron Man]

You're right, he would have included 500 tons if he wanted to be more precise.

I think that is more supportive of the position that latenlazy, jobjed and I hold though? That is to say, the fact that the phrase "万吨级" is so broad and vague, suggests to me it is unlikely to be meant as a reference to a standard displacement.

I guess we disagree on the extent of his "generalization" of the number "万". As I said before, the larger the full displacement of the 055, the less likely IMO he is using this term as a literary abbreviation to describe the 055.

 

[latenlazy]

I guess we disagree on the extent of his "generalization" of the number "万". As I said before, the larger the full displacement of the 055, the less likely IMO he is using this term as a literary abbreviation to describe the 055.

I mean, we have a write up from him where he both specifies the standard displacement of the 055 *and* refers to it is as "万吨" generically. I don't think this can be any clearer...

 

[Blitzo]

I mean, we have a write up from him where he both specifies the standard displacement of the 055 *and* refers to it is as "万吨" generically. I don't think this can be any clearer...

Which part of which write up did he mention the bolded part?

 

[Jeff Head]

View attachment 42471

Well...there it is. definitive and clear.

48 cells in the after array of VLS cells.

A total of 112 VLS. No need to wonder any more.

Now, mind you, 112 cells is a large number, and these are large cells.

Quite frankly, I expected 128. The Ticos have 128, and the KDX III have 128, [plus the 16 AMS mounted on four quad launchers. With 144 total "cells" the south Koreans have the largest, modern, AEGIS-type (there actually is AEGIS) vesssel out there in terms of armament.

I had always hoped that the Bukre block III would have followed that example, after all, the US helped them engineer and design it and clear cloud have built the same.

I was surprised when we didn;t...and am similar surprised that the PLAN dod not get 128 in there.

But it is what it is...and the PLAN build 16-24 ships with 112 VLS cells is going to be a game changer in the western Pacific in any case, particularly when you add the Type 052C and 052D vessels to that total.

 

[Jeff Head]

WOW! So much talk back and forth over the tonnage.

Why?

It is what it is.

The fact is, the PLAN has built a large, heavily armed wide-area defense vessel, and they are going to build quite a few of them. My own estimate right now is 16-24...but we shall see.

With 112 VLS, they are not anything to sneeze at or discount...whether it is 10,500 tons or 13,000 tons.

It just seems a bit of over kill and what we used to call "straining at knats" to have such long discussions over which tonnage figure s the most accurate.

I personally believe that the 10,00 is a light load while something north of 12,000 is the normal and perhaps full load. But I am not going to get all out of whack either way.

The Chinese now have a truly capable carrier escort, and they should be proud of what they have accomplished.

They, very methodically went from 1970s technology, to purchased Soviet Technology, to steadily increasing their own designs and capabilities over the last fifteen years to arrive here. And that is one heck of an accomplishment when you think about it.

 

[P5678]

Only comment: if pop3 is a Chinese, then inteprete his words in Chinese way but not in Western way.