055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

[Blitzo]

I see. So that's what you call it when you refer to other peoples' posts using terms like "idiocy" and "stupidity". Because you were "frustrated". Not "mockery" at all. Can you get any more ridiculous in the perverse defense of your indefensible rant? Stepping back to look at the larger picture: you aren't the paragon of virtue you are trying to portray in this thread, so being snide with me about my LOLs and ??? when you debase other people by calling them stupid and idiots and justifying it all by saying you are "frustrated", is really a sight to behold, I must say. In fact it is bordering on the utterly surreal.

I'm sorry to have caused such a reaction. Fundamentally speaking, my reply to you in #4493 was not about my fundamental state of virtue, nor yours.
But rather, it was about how I believed that his claim of 90+ destroyers was not worth such a strong reaction, and that a more subdued reaction was not charitable, but reasonable.

That is to say, when I say "I prefer to write something more subdued," I am not suggesting that every post of mine is subdued, after all I will react strongly to things that I consider ridiculous or unreasonable as well. When I do so, I do prefer to avoid "LOLs" and multiple question marks and instead use more full words to express my opinion, whether it is frustration or indeed to mock them. You of course, are free to use whatever means you wish to express your own frustrations and mockery as well, and my reply was not about your use of "LOL" and multiple question marks instead of saying something is stupid or idiotic, and it was not implying that the latter is somehow better or preferable.
Instead my reply in #4493 was more about how I believe a subdued and tempered response to the claim is enough.


Perhaps that reflects our underlying differences in our opinions about how reasonable it is to talk about 90+ destroyers over 30 years as a realistic prospect, rather than one to be dismissed.


I hope that clears up the misunderstanding.

 

[jobjed]

I also think that given 055's dimensions, and given what we know of other ships' displacements and dimensions, 12-13 thousand tons full seems fairly reasonable.

Obviously, there have been numerous things in pop3's original 2014 predictions that have not come to fruition, such as the precise dimensions, and certain subsystems (like no SMART L type VSR), and how 055's hangars are likely too small to carry Z-18s as well... but I do believe that the whole "ten thousand ton class destroyer" name that's been thrown around by state media and in BBSes and by some big shrimps, should reasonably be considered a shorthand vernacular term, and likely not a reflection of the ship's technical displacement at some level of loadedness.

I don't understand how it wasn't universally interpreted to be a vernacular shorthand. Anyone who speaks Chinese understands that it's an all-encompassing term that isn't meant to convey information to any degree of precision.

It's literally the same as an English news anchor saying "million man army". No one actually expects any sort of precision to that figure. It could be anywhere from 900,000 to a number less than 2 million.

Same with the "death by thousand cuts", which in Chinese is 杀千刀 but in actuality consisted of anywhere from 100 to 3000 cuts. No one can be bothered to specify that it's not 杀千刀 but is instead 杀两千五百刀 because that ruins the flow of expression and the extra detail conveyed is superfluous. It's ridiculous that such a simple concept needs to be stretched out into multiple pages of debates.

 

[latenlazy]

I don't understand how it wasn't universally interpreted to be a vernacular shorthand. Anyone who speaks Chinese understands that it's an all-encompassing term that isn't meant to convey information to any degree of precision.

It's literally the same as an English news anchor saying "million man army". No one actually expects any sort of precision to that figure. It could be anywhere from 900,000 to a number less than 2 million.

Same with the "death by thousand cuts", which in Chinese is 杀千刀 but in actuality consisted of anywhere from 100 to 3000 cuts. No one can be bothered to specify that it's not 杀千刀 but is instead 杀两千五百刀 because that ruins the flow of expression and the extra detail conveyed is superfluous. It's ridiculous that such a simple concept needs to be stretched out into multiple pages of debates.

一万 is specific. 万 is generic. When they praised the emperor with 万岁 they meant *tens* of thousands of years, not ten thousand years.

 

[jobjed]

一万 is specific. 万 is generic. When they praised the emperor with 万岁 they meant *tens* of thousands of years, not ten thousand years.

Exactly.

 

[Iron Man]

I don't understand how it wasn't universally interpreted to be a vernacular shorthand. Anyone who speaks Chinese understands that it's an all-encompassing term that isn't meant to convey information to any degree of precision.

It's literally the same as an English news anchor saying "million man army". No one actually expects any sort of precision to that figure. It could be anywhere from 900,000 to a number less than 2 million.

Same with the "death by thousand cuts", which in Chinese is 杀千刀 but in actuality consisted of anywhere from 100 to 3000 cuts. No one can be bothered to specify that it's not 杀千刀 but is instead 杀两千五百刀 because that ruins the flow of expression and the extra detail conveyed is superfluous. It's ridiculous that such a simple concept needs to be stretched out into multiple pages of debates.

Not being as Chinese as you, I don't consider 10,000 to be a good approximation or genericization of an actual figure of 13,500. That's kind of a stretch in my book, to say the least. In any case, a figure of 10,000 "standard", 12,000 "normal" and 13,500 "full" is something that at least sounds more reasonable and may possibly be consistent with presumed 055 dimensions.

 

[vincent]

Not being as Chinese as you, I don't consider 10,000 to be a good approximation or genericization of an actual figure of 13,500. That's kind of a stretch in my book, to say the least. In any case, a figure of 10,000 "standard", 12,000 "normal" and 13,500 "full" is something that at least sounds more reasonable and may possibly be consistent with presumed 055 dimensions.

Dude, that's how Chinese in general used the term 万吨级. Let's leave it at that

 

[jobjed]

Not being as Chinese as you, I don't consider 10,000 to be a good approximation or genericization of an actual figure of 13,500. That's kind of a stretch in my book, to say the least. In any case, a figure of 10,000 "standard", 12,000 "normal" and 13,500 "full" is something that at least sounds more reasonable and may possibly be consistent with presumed 055 dimensions.

1. The PLAN never divulges standard displacement of their vessels, only normal. This is because standard displacement = normal displacement - 50% fuel load. If both standard and normal are given, their difference, which is easily calculable, will be 50% of the vessel's fuel load and fuel capacity of ships is classified.
2. If the standard displacement actually was 10,000t and normal 12,000t, then 50% of the 055's fuel load would be 2000t, and its full fuel load will be 4000t. By comparison, according to an admittedly
   Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
   , the Type 45's fuel capacity is 1700t. The 055 isn't that much bigger than the Burke-sized Daring to have more than double their fuel load. Regardless, this point is already moot because the PLAN did not and does not divulge standard displacements of their warships.
3. The 万吨级 catchphrase is not meant to be a "good approximation", it's meant to accentuate to Chinese TV audiences that the Chinese Navy has crossed the 10,000-tonne milestone for surface combatants (linguistically significant because 10,000 is like "million" in English) and has joined the ranks of navies with first-rate warships. An average Chinese TV viewer will be perfectly satisfied with that message and the catchphrase "万吨级“ would've done its job. It's only military enthusiasts who will be bothered to pick apart the details like "well, the 052C/D, despite only displacing 6kt normal, already ranked among the best as 'best' is not solely determined by displacement, etc. etc. blah blah blah." We are an extremely small minority, literally no one else cares. Mainstream media will always tailor their content to suit mainstream audiences over us, and mainstream Chinese audiences prefer the short and snappy 万吨级 over 一万二千吨级.

You're usually quite rational. What's going on with you this time? There are multiple Chinese native-speakers telling you that 万吨级 does not entail the sort of precision that you believe it does. Why are you refusing to accept that?

 

[latenlazy]

1. The PLAN never divulges standard displacement of their vessels, only normal. This is because standard displacement = normal displacement - 50% fuel load. If both standard and normal are given, their difference, which is easily calculable, will be 50% of the vessel's fuel load and fuel capacity of ships is classified.
2. If the standard displacement actually was 10,000t and normal 12,000t, then 50% of the 055's fuel load would be 2000t, and its full fuel load will be 4000t. By comparison, according to an admittedly
   Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
   , the Type 45's fuel capacity is 1700t. The 055 isn't that much bigger than the Burke-sized Daring to have more than double their fuel load. Regardless, this point is already moot because the PLAN did not and does not divulge standard displacements of their warships.
3. The 万吨级 catchphrase is not meant to be a "good approximation", it's meant to accentuate to Chinese TV audiences that the Chinese Navy has crossed the 10,000-tonne milestone for surface combatants (linguistically significant because 10,000 is like "million" in English) and has joined the ranks of navies with first-rate warships. An average Chinese TV viewer will be perfectly satisfied with that message and the catchphrase "万吨级“ would've done its job. It's only military enthusiasts who will be bothered to pick apart the details like "well, the 052C/D, despite only displacing 6kt normal, already ranked among the best as 'best' is not solely determined by displacement, etc. etc. blah blah blah." We are an extremely small minority, literally no one else cares. Mainstream media will always tailor their content to suit mainstream audiences over us, and mainstream Chinese audiences prefer the short and snappy 万吨级 over 一万二千吨级.

You're usually quite rational. What's going on with you this time? There are multiple Chinese native-speakers telling you that 万吨级 does not entail the sort of precision that you believe it does. Why are you refusing to accept that?

He doesn't like to be wrong.

 

[Iron Man]

1. The PLAN never divulges standard displacement of their vessels, only normal. This is because standard displacement = normal displacement - 50% fuel load. If both standard and normal are given, their difference, which is easily calculable, will be 50% of the vessel's fuel load and fuel capacity of ships is classified.
2. If the standard displacement actually was 10,000t and normal 12,000t, then 50% of the 055's fuel load would be 2000t, and its full fuel load will be 4000t. By comparison, according to an admittedly
   Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
   , the Type 45's fuel capacity is 1700t. The 055 isn't that much bigger than the Burke-sized Daring to have more than double their fuel load. Regardless, this point is already moot because the PLAN did not and does not divulge standard displacements of their warships.
3. The 万吨级 catchphrase is not meant to be a "good approximation", it's meant to accentuate to Chinese TV audiences that the Chinese Navy has crossed the 10,000-tonne milestone for surface combatants (linguistically significant because 10,000 is like "million" in English) and has joined the ranks of navies with first-rate warships. An average Chinese TV viewer will be perfectly satisfied with that message and the catchphrase "万吨级“ would've done its job. It's only military enthusiasts who will be bothered to pick apart the details like "well, the 052C/D, despite only displacing 6kt normal, already ranked among the best as 'best' is not solely determined by displacement, etc. etc. blah blah blah." We are an extremely small minority, literally no one else cares. Mainstream media will always tailor their content to suit mainstream audiences over us, and mainstream Chinese audiences prefer the short and snappy 万吨级 over 一万二千吨级.

You're usually quite rational. What's going on with you this time? There are multiple Chinese native-speakers telling you that 万吨级 does not entail the sort of precision that you believe it does. Why are you refusing to accept that?

First of all, standard displacement is not "normal - 50% fuel load". Standard is full load minus fuel and feed water. Normal is 2/3 full load supply of consumables including fuel, ammo, etc. Note that you are also now disputing your very own source, pop3, who I am actually just quoting:

标准排水量10500吨，常用排水量12000吨，满载排水量13500吨

Here he is very specific about these numbers and there is no chance he is beautifying the lowest displacement. I just happen to think that both you and lazy are significantly overplaying the ambiguity of 万 here as it relates to the 055. As used by pop3, could 万吨级 be an elegant rounding off of 10,500? Certainly. Could 万吨级 be an elegant rounding off of 13,500? Not IMO.

He doesn't like to be wrong.

My, my, what a little hypocrite we have here. You love to highhandedly lambast me (or rather try to) about my exchanges with other posters that has stretched for pages in the past with you and Bltizo tagteaming me uselessly, but you are clearly a dirty little debater yourself. Nobody likes to be wrong (including you), but you don't seem to even remotely understand other peoples' perspectives and prefer to resort to more prosaic motivations for why they disagree with you.

 

[Jura The idiot]

I was reading this discussion here during today and was thinking about something, but didn't post as I don't know a single word in Chinese (LOL) ... now I saw something possibly related in point #3 of
#4587 jobjed, 15 minutes ago
so I'll say it: couldn't that
万
ALSO refer to the first class of warships displacing more than 10k? I mean I've been aware of 'thousand tonners', which were the USN destroyers built around 1915 and which surpassed 1k displacement figure, contrary to previous classes they were replacing; the point is the actual displacement of 'thousand tonners' was significantly higher than 1,000 tons