055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

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That's exactly what I mean. Both displace 9,800 metric tons yet he claimed the Flight III was "larger". Why is this confusing?
I was under the impression that Flight III Burke would displace 10,000 tons on the dot, ...
I now did a google search
(arleigh+burke+"flight+iii"+displacement )
and some book on the fourth page of hits even says (have to retype) "The existing DDG-51s displace about 9,500 tons, but the Flight III configuration is likely to weigh more than 10,000 tons."

I'll try to link that source here now ... oops, it's 2011 stuff ... but I'll leave it here; the link:
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the title "The Cost-Effectiveness of Nuclear Power for Navy Surface Ships"
dated May 2011

the point is it's not easy to find the displacement of FIII AB
 

Iron Man

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I now did a google search
(arleigh+burke+"flight+iii"+displacement )
and some book on the fourth page of hits even says (have to retype) "The existing DDG-51s displace about 9,500 tons, but the Flight III configuration is likely to weigh more than 10,000 tons."

I'll try to link that source here now ... oops, it's 2011 stuff ... but I'll leave it here; the link:
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the title "The Cost-Effectiveness of Nuclear Power for Navy Surface Ships"
dated May 2011

the point is it's not easy to find the displacement of FIII AB
As this is an American publication , it's probably listed as US (short) tons, not metric tons.
 
As this is an American publication , it's probably listed as US (short) tons, not metric tons.
oh only now I realized what you meant ... the factor is huge (1.102; 1/1.102=0.9074) ... from the topic of Battleships I've been aware of a small difference between long ton and tonne (0.9842; 1/0.9842=1.0161) so LOL I thought you had been just nitpicking
 

Iron Man

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Long ton is distinct from short ton and metric ton. Long ton is pretty much only used by the Brits and some Commonwealth countries. Short ton is only used by the US. Metric ton is used by the rest of the world.
 

Blitzo

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I'm surprised that you're still not sure where I stand on this particular topic.

I know where you stand on this topic, but I'm not sure what the point of that particular post was. I don't think Lethe or I were trying to make any grand claim about "unacknowledged facts" about ship classification, but rather arguing that ship classifications as they are today and at least as the author of that article used them, are becoming increasingly flawed and inaccurate or misleading.

Obviously such a position is an opinion and neither he or I claimed it as anything more than that because it would be silly and overambitious to go on about "unacknowledged facts". So I'm just wondering if that part of your reply was just saying "well that's just your opinion"?



Where are you getting these two numbers from? We are talking metric tons here, just to be absolutely clear.

That might be the difference then, although unfortunately they aren't always specified.

The USN's website though is a useful place. They list the displacement of the "DDG-51" class at 8,230-9,700 long tons where I assume 9,700 tons may refer to Flight III Burke, and they also list Tico class at 9,600 long tons... in which case the Flight III Burke isn't 10,000 metric tons or long tons displacement, but it technically still displaces more than a Tico, with a difference of 100 long tons.

The wikipedia citation for Flight III Burke's displacement was from 2010... so if one really wants to quibble about the Flight III Burke displacement figure from the USN website I suppose one could see when they came up with that number and if it was before or after 2010.

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Lethe

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Frankly the exact numbers don't detract from the basic point, which is that Burke, as a more modern design, is clearly less "dense" than Tico in terms of the capabilities it offers vs. displacement -- and that it requires fewer crew. And then you can scoot over to the 2000-2010s era European designs and observe that they, in turn, are less dense than Burke -- and require fewer crew proportional to displacement. And then you get to the current leading edge designs in Zumwalt and 055 and again observe the same trends. The trends of increasing displacement, reduced crew/displacement ratio, and reduced weapons/displacement ratio are clearly evident and manifest across multiple generations and across navies throughout the world. And all of that has implications for how one interprets 055 as a clean-sheet design circa 2020. And my conclusion (repeated because it captured my position in very simple terms) is that 055 is to 2020 what Burke was to 1990.
 
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Iron Man

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I know where you stand on this topic, but I'm not sure what the point of that particular post was. I don't think Lethe or I were trying to make any grand claim about "unacknowledged facts" about ship classification, but rather arguing that ship classifications as they are today and at least as the author of that article used them, are becoming increasingly flawed and inaccurate or misleading.

Obviously such a position is an opinion and neither he or I claimed it as anything more than that because it would be silly and overambitious to go on about "unacknowledged facts". So I'm just wondering if that part of your reply was just saying "well that's just your opinion"?

The entire part of my reply. And while you may acknowledge that you are positing your personal opinion on the issue, that's just you. I'm not so sure Lethe sees it that way. Actually I feel he thinks it's some kind of self-evident fact.

That might be the difference then, although unfortunately they aren't always specified.

The USN's website though is a useful place. They list the displacement of the "DDG-51" class at 8,230-9,700 long tons where I assume 9,700 tons may refer to Flight III Burke, and they also list Tico class at 9,600 long tons... in which case the Flight III Burke isn't 10,000 metric tons or long tons displacement, but it technically still displaces more than a Tico, with a difference of 100 long tons.

The wikipedia citation for Flight III Burke's displacement was from 2010... so if one really wants to quibble about the Flight III Burke displacement figure from the USN website I suppose one could see when they came up with that number and if it was before or after 2010.

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Who knows, since they don't specify what date they got those numbers.
 

Iron Man

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Frankly the exact numbers don't detract from the basic point, which is that Burke, as a more modern design, is clearly less "dense" than Tico in terms of the capabilities it offers vs. displacement -- and that it requires fewer crew. And then you can scoot over to the 2000-2010s era European designs and observe that they, in turn, are less dense than Burke -- and require fewer crew proportional to displacement. And then you get to the current leading edge designs in Zumwalt and 055 and again observe the same trends. The trends of increasing displacement, reduced crew/displacement ratio, and reduced weapons/displacement ratio are clearly evidence and manifest across multiple generations and across navies throughout the world. And all of that has implications for how one interprets 055 as a clean-sheet design circa 2020.
Again, I do believe I have already cited some examples clearly defeating your alleged trends. Clearly not everyone sees what you deem to be so self-evident.
 

Blitzo

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The entire part of my reply. And while you may acknowledge that you are positing your personal opinion on the issue, that's just you. I'm not so sure Lethe sees it that way. Actually I feel he thinks it's some kind of self-evident fact.

Well the only part of that reply of yours which I had a problem with is the latter half where I wasn't sure what your meaning is ("Suffice it to say that this post (these two posts) represents your opinion rather than your making a statement of some kind of heretofore unacknowledged fact of ship classification.")

As for saying it's "my personal opinion," I think you might be misunderstanding me, because I agree with Lethe and his belief that there are flaws in surface combatant categorizations which are quite self evident.
However it is our opinions that such a phenomenon is quite self evident/obvious/etc. So the question I had regarding your post, is to ask why you believed Lethe or I expressed anything more than merely our own opinions.

Or putting it another way, can you see the difference between what you wrote "a statement of some kind of heretofore unacknowledged fact of ship classification," and how I would describe our positions: "an opinion/judgement about the increasingly flawed/inaccurate method of ship classification"? They aren't so dissimilar, but the way you wrote it makes our position somehow seem immensely more unreasonable.
 

Lethe

Captain
And while you may acknowledge that you are positing your personal opinion on the issue, that's just you. I'm not so sure Lethe sees it that way. Actually I feel he thinks it's some kind of self-evident fact.

I think it is self-evident that contemporary distinctions between frigates, destroyers, and cruisers, are so muddled as to be confusing or misleading, rather than a source of conceptual clarity which is the entire point of having such distinctions in the first place. Such confusion is predictable because it reflects not only differing usage of the terms by various nations, but evolution of warship designs over time. Any conceptual hierarchy is necessarily the product of a particular place and time and is intended to serve particular purposes (i.e. chiefly to describe one's own navy, and those of the most relevant foreign nations), and we should anticipate that it will become less coherent and less useful as distance from those "elements of origination" increases.

The question of whether 055 is a destroyer or a cruiser is, to my mind, basically two questions: the first is how PLAN officially characterises the ship. Such official classification is not necessarily authoritative for the rest of us, but I think it should enjoy a certain degree of privilege. That is to say, we should use the official term unless the use of that term is more confusing than revealing. For an example of where national privilege should prevail, I would point to the Horizon-class frigate. It could conceivably be labelled as a destroyer, but France calls it a frigate, and there is no compelling reason to override their classification. For an example of where external classification does/should prevail, I would point to the Hyuga and Izumo class "destroyers". Japan's classification should be acknowledged, but in a broader global context the vessels are quite different in function, layout, and appearance to what we usually think of as a destroyer. Thus, it makes sense for us to refer to them as "ASW helicopter carriers", whilst also acknowledging the Japanese classification.

Besides official classification and the privilege it should be granted, I think the question of whether it makes sense for us to refer to 055 as a destroyer or a cruiser fundamentally reduces down to how we think of the type in the context of the Navy. Because I view this ship as a successor to the 052x series, not a complement to it, I favour the classification of destroyer. For those who see PLAN producing both 055 and smaller, 052x destroyers alongside one another into the indefinite future, it makes sense to distinguish the former from the latter by labelling it a cruiser, in line with its greater size. Such produces a neat scheme whereby PLAN produces one corvette class*, one frigate class, one destroyer class and one cruiser class. There is an appealing unity and correspondence between class, displacement, and classification. But that is true only if the 052 series does indeed have a future, of which I am far from convinced.

* And of course we have already confronted this question with 056. So far as I can tell, PLAN classifies this ship as a frigate. "We", on the other hand, have apparently decided to label it a corvette, distinguishing it from the much larger 054 class of frigates and better contextualising it in the context of western frigate classes.
 
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