Plot twist: the design of the 055 is actually unsatisfactory so the number has been cut down to 4.
Instead, the railgun and laser equipped Type 055A is immediately built.
Ah, and it also has Japanese-homing hypersonic missiles equipped.
055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread
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Instead, the railgun and laser equipped Type 055A is immediately built.
Ah, and it also has Japanese-homing hypersonic missiles equipped.
It may be the largest surface combatant to date, but certainly not the largest naval ship produced by the domestic industry. Again, a few new subsystems are not going to create any significant hurdles for PLAN ship design at this point (like what besides the ESM, for example???), given that all of the other larger and more complicated systems are not new. Seen as a larger 052D with simply more of the same equipment, which is in fact what it is, then 055s being turned out like pancakes is not really a surprise.
I'd argue that building the largest surface combatant to date -- especially when it's a 12000+ ton vessel versus the previously largest 7000+ ton 052D -- and building them in batch production immediately off the bat, is somewhat unexpected, even if they have built larger naval ships in the form of LPDs, replenishment ships and the carrier.
As for subsystems, we've had our fair share of discussions surrounding the possibility of new radars (X band radar, volume search radar etc) and agreed to disagree (or at least to wait!) on that subject. However, I was also thinking about the combat system and datalinking, command capability as a more important subsystem which I think the 055 would see a significant degree of advancement relative to 052D. I also would not be surprised if the less combat oriented internal systems of the 055 are a step up from the 052D, things like automation, damage control, etc.
I mean, even if 055 was "only" a larger 052D without additional new radars, without more advanced combat system/command capabilities, without advancments of other internal systems, and if the ship's systems were all still the same generation as 052D, even then, I think the sheer greater size of the new hull design 055 compared to 052D, and then having potentially up to 4 055s already in various stages of module assembly even before the first vessel has been launched, would be judged as quite impressive and eyebrow raising.
Impressive and eyebrow raising isn't the same as unexpected, at least as far as capability. Though it is uncertainly unexpected as far as intent and scope, capability is not the same thing and should not be confused with intent. Yes, we can disagree on new systems (basically, what is at Wuhan is for me what is on this ship), but we have no evidence of any kind that there is some kind of new combat system or new datalink on the 055 that the 052D doesn't already have. Improved C&C capability is a likely key improvement over the 052D, but this is the equivalent of adding a flag bridge to a carrier, with more communications and command consoles. Nothing really that would be new or difficult to assimilate.
As far as a 12,000t hull vs a 7,000t hull, this is a total non-issue for me given that we've seen 25,000t 071 hulls being produced, and before you say it's not a surface combatant, I will say that it is a naval ship build to naval standards, and I would challenge you to name what kinds of things make producing a 12-13,000t surface combatant hull harder than producing a 25,000t LPD hull.
Well in my last few posts I've been quite consistent in saying it's unexpected, impressive and eyebrow raising due to the rate and speed that they are building 055s.
I suppose it is a combination of the intent and scope (build rate/speed, and all before the first vessel is launched) combined with the "capability" of the ship type (being much larger than previous class of surface combatant, even if we use a less generous stance and assume 055 is merely a "larger" 052D with all the same subsystems), which I think is a fair enough reason to say it's unexpected/impressive/eyebrow raising etc.
I imagine more advanced software, datalinks, in addition to having something like more consoles, a flag bridge, or a bigger CIC would be be quite important things to differentiate it from an 052D, if they are present on 055.
I don't think it really matters if it's more difficult to assimilate or not, if one is debating about whether 055 is merely a larger 052D or not.
To me, if one wants to make the argument that 055 is a larger 052D, then we should be looking at all the subsystems that 055 has in common with 052D, and then consider which additional subsystems 055 may have which 052D does not, and the totality of those additional subsystems would be used to judge how reasonable the assertion is.
The difficulty of building the individual ship itself is not really the issue here.
As I've written over the last few posts, it is the rate and speed at which they are building a new class of surface combatant, at a weight category that is significantly higher than the other largest surface combatant that they have previously built, which is the reason for the impressed/surprise/eyebrow reaction.
What you've been consistently saying is not relevant to my response to another poster who was referring to supercomputing and advancements in design, etc., a post which you responded to. If you want to bring in intent and scope, that's your thing, not my thing, and not the point I was making to subotai. Yes, the speed at which they are building up this class is "eyebrow raising", but the capability of the Chinese shipbuilding industry is not, which is clearly sufficient to build this class of vessel and should not come as some kind of surprise. This is my point. By capability I'm not referring to the capability of the 055.
IF they are present on the 055, yes. More advanced software for what? Controlling the same exact missiles, guns, CIWS, countermeasures, and radar? New datalinks? You know that datalinking isn't an individual ship capability, right? Something like a Chinese Link 16 is a fleet-wide capability, and something the 052D would be expected to have as well. More consoles is meh. Flag bridge is meh. Bigger CIC is meh. It's all just more, not necessarily more advanced.
Well it was exactly the issue I was raising, whether or not it is the issue for you. Again, my point wasn't that speed and intent weren't impressive and eyebrow raising (they certainly are), but that given the evolutionary not revolutionary nature of the 055 compared to the 052D all these technological advancements mentioned earlier weren't necessarily crucial for the 055 to be built on a large scale.
Jura The idiot
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I followed this lead LOL
using Ctrl+F
23:52
I looked at the responses (as of now there's four pages in this thread OK to the extent I understand it which I don't
and translated them using google, most of them were cheering, this one puzzled me(I don't know how to link it, it appears to be #129 by
posted 2017-2-11 11:10):
"Electric steamer battle has wasted too much time"
is it related to an IEP maybe??
How is supercomputing and advancements in design not related to what I wrote about intent and scope?
Do you not think that having a more mature shipbuilding industry with access to things like supercomptuers, advancements in design processes, and the array of technologies like that will make them more willing to produce a new, large surface combatant class at the rate and speed that I described, which is a reflection of intent and scope?
In fact, isn't the whole point of his post meant to be that supercomputers and advancements in design have allowed the Chinese shipbuilding industry to more confidently leap into fast rate production of this completely new surface combatant class, whereas in previous years or decade they may not have had as much access to this.
(this matter is partly settled in the last part of this reply)
More advanced software to to receive, relay and communicate the ship's own combat information with other ships and assets to integrate it into a more comprehensive tactical picture for the ship to use its weapons in conjunction with friendly assets. Putting it another way, the tactical software side of the ship's datalinking capability.
As for the other things -- what if the consoles are newer as well? What if the CIC is a newer and bigger configuration as well? What if all of these things are all integrated using new software for the combat system as well (more intuitive, more ergonomic, faster processing and refresh speeds)? What about dedicated consoles and software for the flag bridge that 052Ds may not even have an older equivalent of?
And yes, obviously when I say 055 may have new datalinks isn't to suggest that 052D won't have datalinks, or that datalinks are somehow exclusive to 055...
But one doesn't have to be too creative to consider how one ship can have a datalink and the associated back end systems that is more capable than the datalink of another ship -- for instance, being able to handle more datalinks simultaneously from more sources, and/or datalinks that can operate at a higher overall data rate, which could be very consequential advances depending on how much more capable they may or may not be.
Okay, well I partially agree with this if it is your position, but I think it is also worth mentioning that subotai never said those advancements were crucial, merely that they could've been an aspect contributing to 055's rate of production.
From there, I assume you could say that the 055's relatively evolutionary nature from 052D means those technological advancements may have been less important than if the 055 had been more of a revolutionary departure from 052D where those technological advancements could have had even more applicability than it did/does.
I think this is what your original post #2638 meant to convey, but the second half of the reply kind of took away from it, especially the part about the PLAN feeling so comfortable about the evolutionary nature of 055 meaning they were willing to jump into large quantity production, which does read like you believe the Navy's approach to producing 055 in large quantities is treading in a very "comfortable zone" for them, like it is almost no big deal to them or something just because it's evolutionary.
But apparently that is not what you meant so this strand of the discussion can be amicably ended.
Yes, improvements in technology have allowed the Chinese shipbuilding industry to more confidently leap into fast rate production of the 055. But again, this has NOTHING to do with intent and scope. What, I bought a tricked out Pentium 6 exahertz computer for my home, so that means I intend to hack the Pentagon? Are you even serious? Just because China made all these advances means nothing about the PLAN's specific intent to build 4 055s in the space of a couple years time. You've conflated two completely different things and now you're trying to avoid having to recognize capability and intent as separate issues. You're trying to imply here that capability implies intent when the truth is actually nothing of the kind.
This all sounds like a whole lot of handwaving going on right here. What if this, what if that, what if the other. What if "more" datalinks (really?) Well what if nothing? Do you have ANY shred of evidence that anything you have said here has anything to do with something that actually exists AND would be difficult or otherwise burdensome for the Chinese shipbuilding industry to assimilate into a 055?
Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say anything about any very "comfortable zone", merely that the evolutionary nature of the 055 is not some technological hurdle for the Chinese shipbuilding industry to produce the 055, even in large numbers.
I followed this lead LOL
using Ctrl+F
23:52
I looked at the responses (as of now there's four pages in this thread OK to the extent I understand it which I don't
(I don't know how to link it, it appears to be #129 by
posted 2017-2-11 11:10):
"Electric steamer battle has wasted too much time"
is it related to an IEP maybe??
He's talking about catapult.
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