055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

[Hendrik_2000]

Are you sure you have any idea what you are talking about, Mr. Pepe?

More likely Mr MirageIII from CDF. We all know space is premium in ships and the type 52 has reached its full potential . Beside with the proliferation of cheap and deadly missile, type 55 will provide and ideal complement to the forthcoming CV 17 battle group. Recent Russian Kutnetzov problem with Spain refusing to refuel her should be warning to China

 

[sequ]

 

[taxiya]

I am still not clear on the rationale behind the 055 design. I know fan boys think larger is prouder, and being smaller than then Kongos or Zumwalts is somehow an affront, but I don't see what 055 offers that a somewhat modified 052D can't do for less given the primary strategic needs of China for the next 20 years or so.

should you then ask the same question about Kongo, Zumwatt, Burke, Sejong the Great etc.? They are all around 10000 tone. Why 055 being 12000 is a "fanboy" wish of bigger the better, while the other 10000ish of Japan, US and SK are realistically necessary?

That seems that you are at the extreme opposite side of the "fanboy", not really rational either.

 

[weig2000]

Considering the exceedingly impressive degree of corruption revealed in top ranks of the PLA, it would be truly unbelievable if PLA's acquisition is not also influenced to a impressive degree by political considerations of pleasing non-professional fan boys in the power structure of the government and amongst the uninformed public.

I guess this answers the question that why even question the need for 055 to begin with.

Lack of technology especially in propulsion fields. And doctrinal constraints, with a focus on near-shore/brown water operations.

The breakthrough of China's marine gas-turbine technology was probably a bigger revolution than the J-20.

052D is a very good modern destroyer, but its potential for upgrades have been tapped out. It has crammed a 64-cell VLS, by far the most in its weight class. There is no room for additional CC facility and staffs, bigger and better senors, future armament like EM railgun and direct-energy weapons. The speed and endurance are also not ideal for global blue-water navy as envisioned by the PRC leadership (and needed).

The 055 is not some prestige and vanity project; it was even conceived back in the '70s. But China has been challenged by the technologies needed to build such a ship. It's been a multi-decade journey to get to this point where PLAN can finally realize its dream. As documented by Jeff, the evolutionary history of various 052/052B/052C/052D is a testament of such endeavor.

It's pretty understandable and reasonable to discuss/debate/speculate the role of 055 and composition of future PLAN destroyer fleet. But I believe 055 will be the backbone and primary battleships for PLAN blue-water fleet, not 052D. 052D is and will continue to be built in significant numbers where construction of 055 ramps up, which is going to take some years. Besides, 055 will definitely go through multiple iterations and upgrades, and eventually will eclipse 052D as the backbone of destroyer fleet in blue-water.

 

[taxiya]

Considering the exceedingly impressive degree of corruption revealed in top ranks of the PLA, it would be truly unbelievable if PLA's acquisition is not also influenced to a impressive degree by political considerations of pleasing non-professional fan boys in the power structure of the government and amongst the uninformed public.

no need to bring in politics.

btw, as you are at it, the revelation of corruption is because they are captured and put behind bars. Not revealed (in your model political system) does NOT mean the corruption is not there. I do count political lobbying (totally legal in your perfect political system) for private financial gains are "legally sanctioned" corruption. It is power for money, not a little bit less corrupt. And these legal corruption will NEVER be removed. Legalizing a crime to have no crime is just cheating oneself.

 

[vesicles]

Considering the exceedingly impressive degree of corruption revealed in top ranks of the PLA, it would be truly unbelievable if PLA's acquisition is not also influenced to a impressive degree by political considerations of pleasing non-professional fan boys in the power structure of the government and amongst the uninformed public.

Leaving corruption claims aside, you need to explain why you believe it is justifiable for SK and Japan to have similar sized destroyers while it is borderline crazy to the point of obtaining the label of "fan boy fantasy" and "corruption-related" for China to do the same.

Additionally, the PLA has been constantly accused by the West as being a "secretive" military. If they want to keep everything secret to the point of cracking down on photo-shooting, etc, that is not the kind of mentality of someone who is trying to impress people...

 

[Richard Santos]

Leaving corruption claims aside, you need to explain why you believe it is justifiable for SK and Japan to have similar sized destroyers while it is borderline crazy to the point of obtaining the label of "fan boy fantasy" and "corruption-related" for China to do the same.

Additionally, the PLA has been constantly accused by the West as being a "secretive" military. If they want to keep everything secret to the point of cracking down on photo-shooting, etc, how would they impress the "fan boys"?

So if the PLA wants to tighten their security, they are keeping too many secrets. If they want to open up and show everyone what they've got, they want to impress the "fan boys"?

I do not believe SK and Japan can justify similar sized destroyers from sound military strategy and national resource perspective. Japan did it to for much the same reason why Japan built so many bridges and roads to nowhere, because Japan is a corrupt managed capitalist system with glaring deficiencies in efficient internal allocation of capital. SK did it because Japan did.

United states justified Zumwalt in the 1990 by exaggerating the degree of technological dominance it could expect in the next 20-30 years, which made it seem like it had more freedom to experiment with unorthodox concepts and less reason to assess how that could turn sour. Since then it has become clear Zumwalts turned sour and were a mistake.

China has become somewhat more astute and realistic regarding publicity since the 1970s. It is still secretive where it thinks it can be secretive. But it also appreciates managed release of information can often serve its interests better.

 

[Equation]

I do not believe SK and Japan can justify similar sized destroyers from sound military strategy and national resource perspective. Japan did it to for much the same reason why Japan built so many bridges and roads to nowhere, because Japan is a corrupt managed capitalist system with glaring deficiencies in efficient internal allocation of capital. SK did it because Japan did.

United states justified Zumwalt in the 1990 by exaggerating the degree of technological dominance it could expect in the next 20-30 years, which made it seem like it had more freedom to experiment with unorthodox concepts and less reason to assess how that could turn sour. Since then it has become clear Zumwalts turned sour and were a mistake.

China has become somewhat more astute and realistic regarding publicity since the 1970s. It is still secretive where it thinks it can be secretive. But it also appreciates managed release of information can often serve its interests better.

That's the US, Japan and SK problem, NOT China's. If China has the money and researchers to sustain the program of large ship building why not? Like I said, IT'S ALL ABOUT THE PROGRAM. So anti-China fan bois just couldn't stand to see China's capable of sustaining such a program.

 

[Blitzo]

I am still not clear on the rationale behind the 055 design. I know fan boys think larger is prouder, and being smaller than then Kongos or Zumwalts is somehow an affront, but I don't see what 055 offers that a somewhat modified 052D can't do for less given the primary strategic needs of China for the next 20 years or so.

The discussion about why the 055 destroyer should be larger/may be larger has been had many a time over the last few years.

I've written a few (what I consider to be good) replies on the matter myself.
Here's one which I think does the topic some justice, where the issue of balancing size/capability/cost was brought up quite a while ago: https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/type-055-ddg-large-destroyer-thread.t6480/page-163#post-378983



By the way, if you really think 055 as it is (a 12k-13k ton destroyer) is a bit big, then you may be horrified to hear rumours which have talked about a 20k ton solution was under some consideration for the 055's missions and that it was actually downsized to its present size.

 

[dingyibvs]

I do not believe SK and Japan can justify similar sized destroyers from sound military strategy and national resource perspective. Japan did it to for much the same reason why Japan built so many bridges and roads to nowhere, because Japan is a corrupt managed capitalist system with glaring deficiencies in efficient internal allocation of capital. SK did it because Japan did.

I'd like to clarify something with you first: you're mostly just questioning the 055's size, not its subsystems or it as a platform in general, correct? That's a pretty easy question to answer really. Why does anyone want a bigger ship? As many have pointed out, it's primarily for more endurance and bigger/more munitions. The PLA has clearly been developing ASAT and ASBM systems, what if they want to equip them onto their ships? What if the PLAN wants to sustain shore bombardment? Have you seen the amount of space dedicated to storing munitions for its 155mm cannons on the Zumwalt? What if the PLA simply wants the same number of sailor to do more? The 055 is rumored to have crew number in the 300-400 range, while the 052D has a complement of ~280 and carries disproportionately less weapons. It's not like the 055 costs disproportionately more either. While a Zumwalts cost about 4x as much to build compared to the Burkes, the 055 only costs about twice as much as the 052Ds.

So the question really is, why not? What's the advantage of having two 7000 ton ships when one 12000 ton ship has more endurance, equip more powerful/advanced/versatile weapons, use less sailors, and cost about the same? There are some, for sure, but do they outweigh the disadvantages?