055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

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Lethe

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052D is superfluous once 055 comes online. Really not sure why people insist on treating 055 like some kind of limited run "silver bullet" design rather than what it is: a Chinese Arleigh Burke for the 21st century.

The only reason to extend 052D production past 12 units is if there are delays with 055. It's good to have a Plan B, but that's all it is.
 

Blitzo

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052D is superfluous once 055 comes online. Really not sure why people insist on treating 055 like some kind of limited run "silver bullet" design rather than what it is: a Chinese Arleigh Burke for the 21st century.

The only reason to extend 052D production past 12 units is if there are delays with 055. It's good to have a Plan B, but that's all it is.

It is the question of having fewer ships but each of which are more capable, versus having more ships (providing flexibility and redundancy) but some of which are less capable. Any navy (or indeed any military) will have to strike a balance between those demands.

I myself believe the 055 will likely be built in substantial numbers... but that it should be complemented by equally substantial numbers of 052Ds.

Personally I hope the Chinese Navy never builds a "Chinese Arleigh Burke" -- because the Burke class has effectively made the USN surface combatant fleet to be almost standardized to a single heavy weight (9000+ tons) high capability surface combatant which has substantially reduced the number and the capability of their lower end surface combatants... meaning less ships of lower capability to conduct lower end missions, and you have Burkes with their hulking 96 VLS and SPY-1s conducting anti piracy patrols that any modern (or older) frigate should be able to do at much lower expense.

I hope the Chinese Navy builds a surface combatant fleet that is much more balanced between the high end, medium end, and lower end of capabilities that can be optimal for peacetime missions where lower end missions are more predominant, versus wartime missions where higher end missions are more predominant. To reduce costs, the high/medium/low end ships should all seek to field certain common subsystems that are scalable in nature, such as differing VLS count but using same kind of VLS, console count in a CIC, a common scalable APAR design (or at least use of somewhat common TR modules), a common or related family of combat systems, etc.
 
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Blitzo

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The Zumwalt is a fire support centric multi-role combatant.

It has very good AAW capabilities, but not for broad, area coverage.

So there is a different focus between the two. Because I believe the Type 055 will definitely be an AAW centric multi-role vessel.

With the Rail Gun, the Type 055 would enhance its firs support capabilities, but I believe it would still be focused on AAW.

IMHO, the Type 055 is going to be more akin to a Tico cruiser...or the Flight II Burkes (which will also ultimately have a 127mm rail gun as well).

Eventually rail guns will become the standard type of gun aboard all naval surface ships able to support them -- any rail gun that replaces the 055's 130mm gun will not drastically change the 055's mission, it will simply enhance its anti surface capabilities.

I think it's still up in the air as to whether the USN's Burkes (including Flight III) will be capable of supporting a rail gun. They seem to be squeezing out as much juice as they can for the Flight III's power hungry AMDR alread, I'm not sure if they will have any left over for powering a railgun, unless they are willing to substantially modify the ship.

I see the 055 class in role within the Chinese Navy as generally similar to that of the Tico class in the US Navy... but with substantially more growth capability than what the Tico had (though of course the Tico was effectively a highly modified variant of the Spruance class).
 

Lethe

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Personally I hope the Chinese Navy never builds a "Chinese Arleigh Burke" -- because the Burke class has effectively made the USN surface combatant fleet to be almost standardized to a single heavy weight (9000+ tons) high capability surface combatant which has substantially reduced the number and the capability of their lower end surface combatants... meaning less ships of lower capability to conduct lower end missions, and you have Burkes with their hulking 96 VLS and SPY-1s conducting anti piracy patrols that any modern (or older) frigate should be able to do at much lower expense.

That USN foolishly chose not to develop and field a new general purpose frigate in the 1990s leaving it with Burkes as far as the eye can see is not what I was suggesting China emulate by the comparison. Of course there should be a new ~5000-6000 ton frigate design built in large numbers to succeed 054/A and complement 055.

I hope the Chinese Navy builds a surface combatant fleet that is much more balanced between the high end, medium end, and lower end of capabilities that can be optimal for peacetime missions where lower end missions are more predominant, versus wartime missions where higher end missions are more predominant.

It is widely acknowledged that systems are the major cost drivers in a modern warship, not hull size. 052D can therefore only be *much* cheaper than 055 by omitting or downgrading capabilities such as L-band radar. Given that even the regional environment is saturated with high-end threats (submarines, aircraft, surface ships) such downgrades make little sense. If the threat is too much for a frigate, you will want 055, not a downgraded facsimile thereof. In terms of operating cost 055 as a new design will likely incorporate significant improvements in automation meaning that personnel costs will be similar.

I agree that China should pursue a balanced array of low, medium, and high-end capabilities. I do not see how this leads to the conclusion that more 052Ds should be built once 055 is online. The low-end capability is 056/successor, the medium is 054A/successor, and the high-end is 052D succeeded by 055.
 
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Blitzo

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That USN foolishly chose not to develop and field a new general purpose frigate in the 1990s (something which is really quite bizarre, leaving it with Burkes as far as they eye can see is not what I was suggesting China emulate. by the comparison. Of course there should be a new ~5000-6000 ton frigate design built in large numbers to succeed 054/A and complement 055.

I would not be opposed to a 5000-6000 ton frigate built en masse alongside 055 and both would thus completely replace all current frigates and destroyers eventually, but an alternative for me is to develop a 4500-5000 ton frigate instead that is more cleanly relegated to a less capable frigate capability and which leaves room left for 052D production as well as 055 production via three tiers rather than two tiers. [I expand on this in the last part of this post]


It is widely acknowledged that systems are the major cost drivers in a modern warship, not hull size. 052D can therefore only be *significantly* cheaper than 055 by omitting or downgrading capabilities such as L-band radar. Given that the environment is saturated with high-end threats (submarines, aircraft, surface ships) such downgrades make little sense. In terms of operating cost 055 as a new design will likely incorporate significant improvements in automation and personnel management meaning that crew load and cost will be similar.

I agree, but we should also remember that 055 is far greater size (up to 13,500 tons at full displacement potentially, given some big shrimps have recently put the standard displacement at 12,000 tons) compared to 052D (7,500 tons full displacement, and that is somewhat pushing it -- it may be even lower, at only slightly in excess of 7,000 tons, depending on how one extrapolates official displacement numbers). In other words, an 055 may ultimately displace nearly twice as much as an 052D.

The costs that this will incur is not directly through the larger displacement of 055, rather it is via the far greater number, complexity and variety of systems that an 055 will be able to accommodate compared to an 052D.
Systems include sensors/combat management, weapons, propulsion, among others.

There are sensors and combat management to consider: everything from the L band radar, S band radar to the combat management system (and associated CIC and possible flag bridge for a flag officer and their staff), datalinks and processing unique to 055 by virtue of its size, additional active sensors (X band radar) as well as passive sensors (ESM and EOIRST) and ECM arrays, not to mention sonar... all of these sensors and combat management related systems individually will likely be more capable than their 052D equivalent and in some cases there may also be more of them (such as more consoles in the CIC of an 055 vs an 052D). That all adds up to more cost.

Weapons work the same way in a more obvious manner: 055 will have possibly up to twice as many VLS as an 052D, but initially will have similar armament in other domains (same main gun, same/similar ciws). Higher cost of armament is not as big of a factor for 055's potentially greater cost in such a configuration, but if an IEPS equipped 055A emerges with a railgun and/or DEW CIWS, then that would likely hike up 055A's cost versus 052D [of course, it is possible that 052D may eventually find itself having an 052E in the second batch of 12 ships, and also be able to field a railgun or DEW laser CIWS if they are able to squeeze in a new propulsion type into the 052D's hull, such as CODLOG... but an 055A will still have the benefits of being a far larger hull and thus be able to generate more power via IEPS as well as carry a larger railgun, etc, which will still add up to more costs for an 055 equivalent of the era]

Propulsion: 055 is expected to use four QC-280s versus the 2 QC-280s and two diesels onboard an 052D. Initially 055 is expected to only operate QC-280s via a COGAG configuration, but there is enough space in the ship to put the QC-280s in an IEPS arrangement, which further adds complexity and cost compared to the propulsion of 052D.

Others: the larger size of 055 also means a larger crew (meaning more costs) which can be offset by automation technology, but even assuming both 055 and 052D eventually adopt certain automation technologies, 055 will still likely be more expensive in this regard (especially if 055 adopts even greater crew comforts into its design than current generation surface combatants); 055 may also adopt certain new technologies such as for damage control, or even additional facilities that 052D cannot have the volume for such as a secondary CIC.

All in all, I believe that the larger size of 055 (potentially up to nearly twice as large as an 052D) means it will be significantly more costly than the 052D, not because of sheer size but because the size allows for much more capable technologies and systems to be integrated into the hull and in greater number compared to an 052D. And even assuming an 052D is developed into an 052E hull with similar advancements that an 055 will have via an 055A, the absolute larger size of the 055 hull means it will always be able to accommodate a greater number of equivalent systems as well as a greater variety of systems some of which that an 052D may simply lack.
In other words, of the equivalent capabilities that 055 and 052D will share (such as both using a common VLS but 055 carrying double the number, or 055 using four QC280s vs 052Ds two), 055 will be able to have an equivalent capability in greater quantity. 055's larger size also means it can adopt additional capabilities that 052D simply does not have the size for (such as an L band and X band MFR AESA in addition to an S band MFR AESA, or 055's potential to adopt full IEPS).
It is the greater quantity of equivalent capabilities as well as the potentially large number of additional capabilities that 055 can host vis-a-vis 052D which (in my mind) will cause 055 to have a substantially greater cost than 052D. I'm not suggesting it will be so much greater in cost that only a few 055s can be produced, but I am saying that we should consider the variety of potential very high end capabilities the 055 can offer and whether we want that to be complemented by a high-medium end capability ship as well.



I fully agree that China should pursue a balanced array of low, medium, and high-end capabilities. I do not see how this leads to the conclusion that more 052Ds should be built once 055 is online. The low-end capability is 056/successor, the medium is 054A/successor, and the high-end is 052D succeeded by 055.

Sorry, by lower/medium/high end I was referring to blue water capable ships.
I would consider 056 and 022 to be unique as green water/coastal defence ships.

I would define the roles of each of the low/medium/high end blue water capable ships as such...

Lower end (054A/B): ASW as one of its primary missions (sonar sensor fit and propulsion are important in this regard -- but also very important is that such a ship would still be substantially less expensive and smaller than a medium end combatant thus can be more willing to be risked against a submarine, which could be anything from a high end heavy SSN to a low end, small SSK); medium range/self defense AAW; medium range surveillance; picket missions in a task force (combining the ASW and AAW role aforementioned); limited anti surface and land attack capability (via common VLS); convoy protection; escorting shuttling replenishment ships; command of a task force of coastal defence ships (056s) for defense of home or local waters (for ASW mostly but also medium range AAW against any "leaked" cruise missiles); and operating independently or in small groups in low intensity regions.

Medium end (052D/E): long range AAW as supplement to higher end ships (but less capable due to much less VLS cells); long range surveillance; command of a small or medium sized task force (including ARGs or a small SAG); land attack and anti surface missions; operating in groups alongside other medium end combatants possibly with some high end combatants; operating independently or in small groups in medium risk environments;

High end (055/A): long range AAW and acting as the "shield" of a task group via its large number of VLS cells; very long range and comprehensive surveillance; command of a large task force or fleet (including CSGs, a large SAG or a large combined taskforce); potential BMD and ASAT missions; large scale land strike and anti surface; operating independently (in medium-high risk environments) or in conjunction with other high end ships or medium end ships as part of a SAG.

[note 1: many low end capabilities would also be present on medium and high end ships, and medium end capabilities also present on high end ships... but vice versa not true]
[note 2: the rise of CeC will likely mean a lower end frigate can potentially carry a LR SAM and successfully engage a target at very long range if supported by an 055 or 052D or fixed wing AEW&C via CeC, however I also believe that despite this possibility, most ships of various displacements will still carry payload compositions which are mostly oriented towards their organic sensor capabilities with only some VLS left over for other roles that may not be its primary mission or which can be supported by CeC]
 
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Jeff Head

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Eventually rail guns will become the standard type of gun aboard all naval surface ships able to support them -- any rail gun that replaces the 055's 130mm gun will not drastically change the 055's mission, it will simply enhance its anti surface capabilities.
Which is exactly what I said..and I quote:

Jeff Head said:
With the Rail Gun, the Type 055 would enhance its firs support capabilities, but I believe it would still be focused on AAW.

I see the 055 class in role within the Chinese Navy as generally similar to that of the Tico class in the US Navy.
Which is also what I said:


Jeff Head said:
IMHO, the Type 055 is going to be more akin to a Tico cruiser...

... but with substantially more growth capability than what the Tico had (though of course the Tico was effectively a highly modified variant of the Spruance class)
Actually, when built, the Ticos themselves had a LOT of growth potential. It is why they were able to add VLS to the hull, add better sensors, upgrade AEGIS, upgrade the 5" guns, etc. over and over in the last 33+ years.

And they will receive a few more upgrades to keep them going another 15+ years. But in terms of the emerging technologies, they cannot go to a lot of that. That's why the US needs a new hull form to once again provide a platform that can grow in this way.

The Zumwalt was supposed to be that, with the Zumwalt being the multi-role DDG, and another, based on the same general hull, was going to be the CGX. Now that has been tabled and we will have to wait for another.
 

Blitzo

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Which is exactly what I said..and I quote:

Not to be nitpicky -- but you mentioned fire support (which I interpreted to be NGFS) rather than general anti surface capabilities (which is what I mentioned), in regards to the rail gun.

Which is also what I said:

Yes, and I was merely agreeing with what you said...


Actually, when built, the Ticos themselves had a LOT of growth potential. It is why they were able to add VLS to the hull, add better sensors, upgrade AEGIS, upgrade the 5" guns, etc. over and over in the last 33+ years.

And they will receive a few more upgrades to keep them going another 15+ years. But in terms of the emerging technologies, they cannot go to a lot of that. That's why the US needs a new hull form to once again provide a platform that can grow in this way.

I think upgrading existing systems within the same space is not "growth potential" rather than merely upgrade potential or MLU potential.
In terms of growth potential, I am talking about having the additional physical potential to add entirely new subsystems, i.e.: conversion from Spruance to Tico kind of upgrade.
 

Jeff Head

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Getting back to the Type 055. What is the latest artist concepts looking like?

Are these still felt to be fairly accurate?

15420397021_519369c283_b.jpg

15423226672_1501cb3dca_o.jpg

It will be really nice to see the first one come together.

Is there any more progress noted from the potential constructions site?
 

Blitzo

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Getting back to the Type 055. What is the latest artist concepts looking like?

Are these still felt to be fairly accurate?

View attachment 22597

View attachment 22598

It will be really nice to see the first one come together.

Is there any more progress noted from the potential constructions site?

We don't have any pics of JN's building hall where 055 is expected to emerge.
I feel like we may only end up seeing its bow once it is almost fully complete... possibly only a month or two before it is launched. If it is launched in mid or late 2016, we may have to wait quite a bit of time yet.

As for the CGIs... they're all somewhat accurate, but the boat davits will probably be present alongside the aft superstructure/alongside the helicopter hangars, considering the mockup at wuhan has it in a similar place.

The CGIs also do not show an aft radar -- which despite not being present on the Wuhan mockup at present, is still expected on the eventual ship at this stage.
Some details of the CGIs are also a bit off -- such as the integrated mast, having "three sets" of arrays, set neatly one on top of the other on each side of the mast, rather than having multiple small arrays on each side clustered near the top of the mast.

I myself think that this line drawing (edited by myself a while back) probably most realistically depicts what we can expect of 055 based on what we see on the mock up at Wuhan and also what persistent rumours have told us

EdFBuzm.png
 
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