054B/new generation frigate

Tam

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I wouldn't put it like that.

Three fixed arrays is perfectly reasonable; on the Constellation class it has three reduced size SPY-6 arrays for its radar set up mounted above the deck house (but not on a mast).


In the case of 054B, the reason it will have a two array radar isn't because it's cheaper than a three array setup, rather it's because of the balance between array size, radar height, and array number.

On any given hullform, assuming money and technology isn't a limiting factor, you can only really choose two of those three things to prioritize:
- Greater array size means each array has greater power
- Higher radar height means longer radar horizon, meaning you can pick up low altitude and surface targets at longer distances
- Greater array number means you have higher refresh rates (or if you have fixed arrays, you don't need mechanical rotation for refresh)

In the case of 054B, we expect them to use the dual array mast mounted, fast rotating AESA setup:
GveGnaX.jpeg



That suggests to me, of the three characteristics from above, they chose to prioritize: greater array size (greater power), and higher radar height (longer radar horizon).
In theory, the radar is "only" two faced, but it should be on a fast rotating mount, meaning that it should have very rapid refresh rates. The overall configuration of the radar is not dissimilar to the UK SAMPSON radar on Type 45.


If on 054B they wanted to have three fixed arrays instead of two, then they have to give up one of the two other characteristics.
- They can either reduce each array's size while keeping it at the same radar height on the mast, producing a three array fixed mast mounted configuration but each array is smaller than the two array configuration
- Or, they can reduce the radar height from the mast lower to the deckhouse, producing a three array fixed deckhouse mounted configuration where each array is the same size as it was in the two array configuration, but mounted much lower on the ship thus reducing radar horizon
(and it goes without saying if they went for a four fixed array configuration, then those aforementioned factors would need to be even more diminished)

Personally, I think their current configuration of a mast mounted, large two array rotating option, is perfectly fine.


That's only for the main search radar, not counting secondary search and fire control radars.

The large dual faced AESA is likely to be complemented by a smaller dual faced AESA, which is already seen on the Type 075 and which is expected to be set on a second mast. The purpose of this smaller radar is to scan for sea skimming threats flying low over the water and the radar horizon, and this requires a higher frequency (C or X-band) for greater differentiation, resolution against targets and resistance against sea clutter. The main search radar would be the longer S-band. The implementation of the Type 364 radar in the PLAN highlights the issues of S-band radars against low flying targets amidst sea clutter.

But that's not all.

You're still going to need a set of small X-band radars set in a fixed four faced configuration (seen on Type 055) or a single array in a rotary mount, that's going to be your gunnery and antishipping fire control radars. The CIWS may have their own phase arrays too (ala Fujian 003).

And then on top of that, for the HHQ-16, you need a set of four faced X-band target illuminators that also serves to track targets while simultaneously illuminating them. (5th batch 054A).

This makes an integrated mast necessary that allows such installments, and in addition, you also need a small four faced phase array for CEC datalink and another four faced array for ESM (both ala Type 055). But we don't count them as radars. Note that the Fujian now incorporates a new four faced array ECM on its island superstructure that's an extension of the two array ECM on the 055. And that's separate from its four X-band radars and four S-band radars, along with a whole crown mast of CEC and ESM arrays.

The problem of three fixed arrays is that once the beam is bent or steered to the sides, the beam loses power and at times generate sidelobes. To reduce as much all out steering to the sides of the arrays as possible, you want four. Hence the vast majority of fixed phase array layouts prefer to use at least four arrays in four separate quadrants. This also means you can create a stronger structural tower and base that can be used to mount other arrays.

This is what you are going to expect if you are expected to replace each and every radar on the Type 054A on a one to one basis.

1. Type 382 volume air search radar -> Dual Faced S-band radar (seen on test ship 892)
2. Type 364 secondary surface search radar -> Dual faced C-band radar (seen on Type 075)
3. Type 347 Gunnery fire control radar -> X-band radar (seen on Fujian CIWS)
4. Type 366 Antiship fire control radar -> X-band radar (seen on Type 055; this can replace gunnery fire control radar).
5. HHQ-16 Front Dome target illuminators -> X-band target illuminators (seen on 054A latest batch).

We have to assume the fulfillment of these five purposes to be the base requirement of a succeeding frigate to the 054A, or you will have inferior or less capability to the predecessor.

There is a design question if you want to replace No. 2 to 5, with a single multipurpose X-band radar that does sea skimming surface search, gunnery fire control, antiship engagement and missile target illumination. This single multipurpose X-band radar is going to end up being bigger and more powerful than four separate sets of smallish radars filling the purpose of No. 2, 3, 4, and 5.

This bigger X-band radar is going to have to be a set of four arrays set on the mast below the dual faced S-band AESA. Once again, I prefer four faces instead of a three faced mast because of structural rigidity --- four supports versus three supports --- and the greater internal working volume of a square versus a triangle. Four faces on the integrated mast allow you to fit the existing four faced CEC datalinks, ESM and ECM panels on the same mast.

There is one other alternative and that is No. 2, 3, and 4 is replaced by a single X-band four faced radar, which already exists on the Type 055. This means the No. 5 is still going to be a separate set.

To sum it all up, the three radar configurations are:

One --

One Dual Faced S-band Radar for search
One Dual Faced C/X-band radar for surface search
One X-band gunnery and antiship FCR
One X-band set for missile target illumination

Two --

One Dual Faced S-band Radar for air search
One set Four fixed faced multipurpose X-band radar combining surface search, gunnery, antiship and target illumination.

Three --

One Dual Faced S-band Radar for air search.
One set Four fixed faced multirole X-band radar with surface search, gunnery and antiship.
One set Four fixed faced X-band target tracker and illumination.

Every one of these radars now exist in the PLAN inventory except for the X-band radar in Proposal 2, but even that radar is within technological possibility and would be a derivative to the X-band set already seen on the Type 055.
 
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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That's only for the main search radar, not counting secondary search and fire control radars.

The large dual faced AESA is likely to be complemented by a smaller dual faced AESA, which is already seen on the Type 075 and which is expected to be set on a second mast. The purpose of this smaller radar is to scan for sea skimming threats flying low over the water and the radar horizon, and this requires a higher frequency (C or X-band) for greater differentiation, resolution against targets and resistance against sea clutter. The main search radar would be the longer S-band. The implementation of the Type 364 radar in the PLAN highlights the issues of S-band radars against low flying targets amidst sea clutter.

But that's not all.

You're still going to need a set of small X-band radars set in a fixed four faced configuration (seen on Type 055) or a single array in a rotary mount, that's going to be your gunnery and antishipping fire control radars. The CIWS may have their own phase arrays too (ala Fujian 003).

And then on top of that, for the HHQ-16, you need a set of four faced X-band target illuminators that also serves to track targets while simultaneously illuminating them. (5th batch 054A).

This makes an integrated mast necessary that allows such installments, and in addition, you also need a small four faced phase array for CEC datalink and another four faced array for ESM (both ala Type 055). But we don't count them as radars. Note that the Fujian now incorporates a new four faced array ECM on its island superstructure that's an extension of the two array ECM on the 055. And that's separate from its four X-band radars and four S-band radars, along with a whole crown mast of CEC and ESM arrays.

The problem of three fixed arrays is that once the beam is bent or steered to the sides, the beam loses power and at times generate sidelobes. To reduce as much all out steering to the sides of the arrays as possible, you want four. Hence the vast majority of fixed phase array layouts prefer to use at least four arrays in four separate quadrants. This also means you can create a stronger structural tower and base that can be used to mount other arrays.

This is what you are going to expect if you are expected to replace each and every radar on the Type 054A on a one to one basis.

1. Type 382 volume air search radar -> Dual Faced S-band radar (seen on test ship 892)
2. Type 364 secondary surface search radar -> Dual faced C-band radar (seen on Type 075)
3. Type 347 Gunnery fire control radar -> X-band radar (seen on Fujian CIWS)
4. Type 366 Antiship fire control radar -> X-band radar (seen on Type 055; this can replace gunnery fire control radar).
5. HHQ-16 Front Dome target illuminators -> X-band target illuminators (seen on 054A latest batch).

We have to assume the fulfillment of these five purposes to be the base requirement of a succeeding frigate to the 054A, or you will have inferior or less capability to the predecessor.

There is a design question if you want to replace No. 2 to 5, with a single multipurpose X-band radar that does sea skimming surface search, gunnery fire control, antiship engagement and missile target illumination. This single multipurpose X-band radar is going to end up being bigger and more powerful than four separate sets of smallish radars filling the purpose of No. 2, 3, 4, and 5.

This bigger X-band radar is going to have to be a set of four arrays set on the mast below the dual faced S-band AESA. Once again, I prefer four faces instead of a three faced mast because of structural rigidity --- four supports versus three supports --- and the greater internal working volume of a square versus a triangle. Four faces on the integrated mast allow you to fit the existing four faced CEC datalinks, ESM and ECM panels on the same mast.

There is one other alternative and that is No. 2, 3, and 4 is replaced by a single X-band four faced radar, which already exists on the Type 055. This means the No. 5 is still going to be a separate set.

To sum it all up, the three radar configurations are:

One --

One Dual Faced S-band Radar for search
One Dual Faced C/X-band radar for surface search
One X-band gunnery and antiship FCR
One X-band set for missile target illumination

Two --

One Dual Faced S-band Radar for air search
One set Four fixed faced multipurpose X-band radar combining surface search, gunnery, antiship and target illumination.

Three --

One Dual Faced S-band Radar for air search.
One set Four fixed faced multirole X-band radar with surface search, gunnery and antiship.
One set Four fixed faced X-band target tracker and illumination.

Every one of these radars now exist in the PLAN inventory except for the X-band radar in Proposal 2, but even that radar is within technological possibility and would be a derivative to the X-band set already seen on the Type 055.

He was asking about the primary MFR of the ship, so my answer addresses that, and the general principle remains.

I don't necessarily disagree with what you wrote here, but it doesn't relate to his question.


My overall point is that simply going from two arrays to three arrays isn't as simple as "going all out" as TK3600 wrote, and there are tradeoffs to having more vs less arrays in the form of considering array size and radar mounting height.
And that three fixed arrays is also a very functional configuration and shouldn't be viewed as "cutting corners"
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
He was asking about the primary MFR of the ship, so my answer addresses that, and the general principle remains.

I don't necessarily disagree with what you wrote here, but it doesn't relate to his question.


My overall point is that simply going from two arrays to three arrays isn't as simple as "going all out" as TK3600 wrote, and there are tradeoffs to having more vs less arrays in the form of considering array size and radar mounting height.
And that three fixed arrays is also a very functional configuration and shouldn't be viewed as "cutting corners"

There's another point that I made and that is a four faced quadrant radar performs better because it reduces beam steering to the sides of the array which reduces gain. The tradeoff for using a three faced array is less performance when you scan for 360 degrees. You have to remember the beam strength perpendicular from the face of the array has the most gain versus when the beam is steered down 60 degrees. That's why no one else has a three faced array. Even the Russians who are also cost cutting, elected to use four fixed arrays. Same with Thales. The Australians even went with six faced arrays.
 
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test1979

Junior Member
Registered Member
There's another point that I made and that is a four faced quadrant radar performs better because it reduces beam steering to the sides of the array which reduces gain. The tradeoff for using a three faced array is less performance when you scan for 360 degrees. You have to remember the beam strength perpendicular from the face of the array has the most gain versus when the beam is steered down 60 degrees. That's why no one else has a three faced array. Even the Russians who are also cost cutting, elected to use four fixed arrays. Same with Thales. The Australians even went with six faced arrays.
If the air defense missile equipped with the 054b has an active seeker, it may not need the X-band fire control radar. Similar to the TYPE-45 only needs a large array of S-band search radars.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
If the air defense missile equipped with the 054b has an active seeker, it may not need the X-band fire control radar. Similar to the TYPE-45 only needs a large array of S-band search radars.

That's not what the PLAN thinks, and I agree with them. The X band fire control radar is also used for the 76mm gun, which is dual purpose. When it's on the anti air mode, the 76mm gun acts like a CIWS. In fact the gunnery radar used on the 054A right now for it's 76mm is the same radar that's on top of it's 30mm CIWS.

S band radars have issues with sea clutter against low flying threats. The PLAN went out of it's way to install a separate C-band radar just for this. The Type 364 radar is now ubiquitous and found in every PLAN ship including the carriers unless it is replaced by another radar in functionality. The Type 364 works in conjunction with the Type 347/349 gunnery radars against surface and low flying threats.

The Russians has also chosen to add a separate surface search radar, this one being the Positiv X-band radar. Even the USN has come around to this by adding the SPQ-9B X-band radar as part of AEGIS baseline 9 and as a part of new ships on top of SPY-6 and EASR installments.

I am coming around that the Type 45's radar approach of being highly centric on it's S and L band radars to be on the wrong side. If you want counter examples, the Japanese Akizuki destroyers rely only on C and X band radars and the Mogami class frigate only relies on X-band. Correct me if I'm wrong but Kronos is C band and so is the radars of the Patriot air defense system.

About the active guidance, we are still seeing how good semi active guidance is on the Ukrainian war. SARH, because of it's brute power, with illumination based off the ship's generators instead of small batteries, has the power to burn through ECM, unfortunately of which is most often self generated by your own fleet. SARH also has the power to burn through clutter and deal with low RCS objects. The new blocks of SM-2 Standards and ESSM are combining both ARH and SARH methods, so it's smart that HHQ-16F would do the same.
 

tphuang

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Super Moderator
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Plan needs highly situated x band radar because it needs to deal with many stealthy sea skimming missiles. Otherwise, how does it engage against multiple lrasm or brahmos or hf3? I can't comment on royal Navy's design decisions, but it will be out of missiles very quickly if it had to face a real adversary.
 

Zichan

Junior Member
Registered Member
Plan needs highly situated x band radar because it needs to deal with many stealthy sea skimming missiles. Otherwise, how does it engage against multiple lrasm or brahmos or hf3? I can't comment on royal Navy's design decisions, but it will be out of missiles very quickly if it had to face a real adversary.
Unlike ground warfare, in modern naval warfare the defending side is at a distinct disadvantage. In an engagement between two sides equally matched in firepower and defensiveness, the side that fires a large missile salvo first usually wins: the later its missiles are detected the greater the odds it will defeat the opposing fleet.
 
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