054B/new generation frigate

Gloire_bb said:

These are typically dedicated air defense frigates. Expensive and often not available for frigate tasks.
Constellations in this sense are going to be more of an exception than a rule. Numerous exceptions, but exceptions nevertheless.

1. Mid-range SAMs are getting an update, and we aren't sure yet how far new "mid" is. Even existing HHQ-16 is a massive qualitative step up from HHQ-10. If, say, in the new version it's going to be north of 100 - that's going to be even more of a difference.
2. Current fit is likely capable of saving it from a couple of non-dedicated air raids.What's important - 054a is capable of protecting ships other than itself. Including these very 056s...
3. 056 with its single-directional, short range and weather-dependent HHQ-10 is capable of far protecting itself from far less.

Btw, worth mentioning that this outfit alone costs as much as a corvette.

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Yes they are expensive and small in numbers individually but Western nations are rich and numerous

Off the top of my head I can remember around 30 for UK/AUS/CAN with their Type 26 project, around 10 for Japan and 5 for Korea, around 10 in Europe if I'm not wrong.

And these are excluding the larger destroyers/16 celled frigates/FREMM with Sylver VLS

It's quite a huge number. Even without US involvement if they congregated they could be more than a match for the PLA navy.

AndrewS said:

In a high-intensity conflict, what independent operations do you actually imagine the Chinese Navy sending a single Frigate on?

We're going to see task groups built from the Chinese fleet of 72+ Corvettes, 70+ Frigates and 40+ modern Destroyers. Remember the Area of Operations is concentrated in the Western Pacific and on carrier groups.

And if you really want independent operations, that is what the Type-054B is for

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Perhaps there would be a dozen or so 054Bs leading a few corvettes/patrol boats to watch over internal seas while the rest of the fleet is out in the ocean

sndef888 said:

China can't exactly send a 052D after every such frigate. It needs a new frigate that can deal with them

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Yes, China could actually send a Type-052D destroyer against every new Frigate.

The Constellation Frigates will be about 1 billion USD. And you can buy a Type-052D destroyers for 550M, which is roughly half the cost.

In a Constellation Vs Type-052D matchup, the Frigate would likely be massacred.

And I expect China to build a bare minimum of 20 destroyers in the next 10 years.

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That being said, I don't think China building new Destroyers is the only or best counter to new Frigates.

For example, airborne surveillance and land-based missiles would likely be part of the system

sndef888 said:

That's kind of the issue. Sure, it's quite bit better asw for double the cost, but it has to basically hide behind a destroyer or land support just like an 056 has to. It can't really perform independent operations like how a constellation class or european frigates can

The lack of a quadpacked midrange missile is a really huge disadvantage for China. There are a crapton of frigates from 5eyes/europe/japan/korea with 32 MK41s that can fit 24 SM2s and 32 ESSMs while the 054A can only fit ~24 mid range missiles

China can't exactly send a 052D after every such frigate. It needs a new frigate that can deal with them

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It's not an Olympic game. PLAN decides how well 054A should be equipped based on evaluations whether it could fulfill its missions, not depending on how the equivalent frigates of other navies look like.

AndrewS said:

That being said, I don't think China building new Destroyers is the only or best counter to new Frigates.

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What is meant by "countering new Frigates"?
Countering in peacetime/escalation period? 054a can do it just fine.
Countering frigates with frigates during wartime? This isn't a direct comparison. And at a level where this calculation makes sense - both are frigates.
The era of individual fights b/n surface warships is mostly long gone.

AndrewS said:

We're going to see task groups built from the Chinese fleet of 72+ Corvettes, 70+ Frigates and 40+ modern Destroyers. Remember the Area of Operations is concentrated in the Western Pacific and on carrier groups.

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There is also the Type 022 which everyone forgets about.

In the last weeks we have seen..

A task group of 054A + 056’s in the Philippine sea.
in the same sea we also saw 052D + 054A + 056.
We have also seen 056 + 022 task group in the SCS.

It seems to me that these seas are the perfect operating areas for these groups along with the first 2 carriers, i.e in and around the first island chain, with submarine and air cover and dense sensor networks.

To control these near seas it’s going to need 50 Types 054A at least, along with a similar number of 052’s simply because surface ships don't seem as survivable to me now and in the near future, there is going to be a lot of loses in a conflict with the US, and this seems like a sensible response to the newly defined USMC ship killing tactics.

The Type 054B, Type 055A, Type 003 are designed for medium (maybe far) seas, including the Western Pacific, Indian Ocean and hopefully around Australia. This automatically means that simultaneous frigate production is needed because their primary roles are different and one does not follow the other, both are needed at all times.

China will need to be able to simultaneously fight in both near and medium seas so these numbers of 054A make sense to me, and of course we have no reason to believe we won’t get them apart from our own speculation.

Regarding capacity, we should remember that Scotland is simultaneously building the Type 26 (slowly) and Type 31 (quickly), if we can do it, so can China.

AndrewS said:

Look at the shipyards which previously produced the Type-054. They obviously have capacity for 6+ frigates per year.

Also note that in 2019, we saw a different set of shipyards launch 10 destroyers, which are bigger and more complex.

Shipyard production capacity is not an issue

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I would think the dry dock at the old Hudong Zhonghua facility at the Huangpu River is capable of holding at least 4 frigates, simultaneously. This is the same dock that gave birth to the 075s and 071s. This is assuming any future 071/075/076 production is shifted to the Changxing facility. Future 054A/P orders are going to be built in Pakistan.

Another drydock across the river could hold another two 054A. The first 054A/P slid out of this drydock.

While six are being assembled simultaneously, modules for the next ships are being collected at the sides of the dock.

The shed in Guandong Huangpu appears it can hold four frigates at the same time, and still manage to have space to slip in Type 056s.

While ships are being assembled at the HDZ drydock, modules for other ships are being collected in other areas, the river outside, the Huangpu, can hold at least six ships, three on each side, for fitting purposes.

Andy1974 said:

There is also the Type 022 which everyone forgets about.

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Because they represent a very specific instrument, in some ways - intermediate between "proper" surface combatants and land-based aviation. Their range and persistence are quite limited, which has a profound impact on their deployment.
To put it bluntly - outside certain range of Chinese land/island facilities they don't count for much - and even within this range, they're more of a reactive asset than a persistent one.

Andy1974 said:

To control these near seas it’s going to need 50 Types 054A at least

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Please define what is meant by "control these near seas".

Gloire_bb said:

Please define what is meant by "control these near seas".

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As a member said recently, sea control can range from applying the maximum about of expenditure to ensure the passing of a single ship at a single moment in time to the complete dominance of a sea, which could be defined (by me) as having the ability to move your assets without damage from enemy forces.

In the case of the very near seas, I think China needs a sea control situation closer to the latter than the former.

In war, the US wants to lock up the PLAN inside the first island chain, in the SCS and ESC, so China needs to be able to completely dominate the locked up area.

America’s major naval advantage are it’s subs, so China needs many frigates (and subs).

Gloire_bb said:

Because they represent a very specific instrument, in some ways - intermediate between "proper" surface combatants and land-based aviation. Their range and persistence are quite limited, which has a profound impact on their deployment.
To put it bluntly - outside certain range of Chinese land/island facilities they don't count for much - and even within this range, they're more of a reactive asset than a persistent one.

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That belief is why they are generally discounted when discussing Chinas naval capabilities, however I believe we will see them used in a much more offensive, and persistent manner in the future.

To stay OT we can continue in the Type 022 thread, but with the support of a suitable supply ship and space based sensors some of the 80+ examples in service could operate in many interesting shallow seas and littoral zones around the world, as well as within the second island ranges as part of groups or special missions given their capabilities. They are small, fast, stealthy, potentially very deadly and a ship carrier can easily transport four of them long distances. Let’s keep an eye out to see if any of them get updates soon, or even a new Type.

sndef888 said:

That's kind of the issue. Sure, it's quite bit better asw for double the cost, but it has to basically hide behind a destroyer or land support just like an 056 has to. It can't really perform independent operations like how a constellation class or european frigates can

The lack of a quadpacked midrange missile is a really huge disadvantage for China. There are a crapton of frigates from 5eyes/europe/japan/korea with 32 MK41s that can fit 24 SM2s and 32 ESSMs while the 054A can only fit ~24 mid range missiles

China can't exactly send a 052D after every such frigate. It needs a new frigate that can deal with them

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How did you manage to turn a weakness of EU/Western navies into smt that sounding like a strength? These navies had no or very few destroyers so they really try to give destroyer roles to their smaller frigates.