054B/new generation frigate

blindsight · Sep 4, 2021

Tam said:
Not sure if they should test IEP on a cost sensitive or priority platform like the 054B. Maybe on the 055A or the Type 076, but not something I expect to be mass produced. The ships are going to have to retain something that made the 054/054A series a cost effective and reliable platform.

To test IEP on 055A or 076, it'll be more challenging. And if something wrong, it'll be not just more costly to fix but also means the capability you're temporarily losing is more critical.
054B will eventually be cheap and reliable just like 054A. And if you have to fix something to make it work, you still have a lot of 054A.

Tam · Sep 4, 2021

blindsight said:
To test IEP on 055A or 076, it'll be more challenging. And if something wrong, it'll be not just more costly to fix but also means the capability you're temporarily losing is more critical.
054B will eventually be cheap and reliable just like 054A. And if you have to fix something to make it work, you still have a lot of 054A.

I still doubt an unproven system will be installed right even in the first Type 054B. They would have tested it thoroughly before that, whether its a static platform, or through a test ship. I don't believe they would go feely feely deely putting untested techs into a production ship, then wing it and fix problems later.

blindsight · Sep 4, 2021

Tam said:
I am not sure how significant is that compared to the one in '12, which introduced modern ASW sonars and EW equipment to the ship. As for the HQ-7 it has been updated, and I don't think its anymore as outdated as the HQ-17/Tor-M1.

Sure , not as significant as the second refit, but still major.

PLAN has been replacing HHQ-7 from almost all ships, so it is obsolete. Even for 521/524, I think PLAN will either sell them or get them refitted. Then why do they have to keep it for only two ships for 10 more years? Especially those are the oldest ships. On the other hand, they could be important assets for the naval academy.

AndrewS · Sep 4, 2021

sndef888 said:
Just my opinion but I feel they should not build so many 054As. It's not really that survivable nowadays with only 24-32 mid range SAMs. If we treat it simply as an ASW platform as many here have said, it feels like more 056s would be more cost effective

In recent years Korea/Japan have really upped their game in terms of numbers/missiles/tech and even Taiwan is loading up Ta Chiang with ~20 missiles

It's no longer feasible to try to overcome Japan/Korea/Taiwan/US with numbers alone. I'm worried that China might be devoting too much manpower/money into a class that could possibly become sitting ducks

The Type-056 doesn't include a helicopter hanger, plus it only has a short-range SAM system.

In terms of costs, a Type-054A costs around $250M?
And my guess is that a Type-056 costs around half this.

Within the First Island Chain, I would expect the Type-056 Corvette and Type-54A Frigate to work together in ASW groups.

blindsight · Sep 4, 2021

Bltizo said:
What I described is not a problem, because in my position, the whole reason that they would be comfortable doing mass production is that they do not foresee 054B having major issues in the first place, and if there are minor teething issues, they have 20 054As to pick up the slack. I wrote this before in post #184.

Basically, you are arguing that you think there are subsystems in the 054B which is insufficiently mature, which is why they will only produce a few ships in an initial batch before a pause of a couple of years.
Whereas I am arguing that I think they could have subsystems in the 054B which are sufficiently mature that they are comfortable to start mass production from the outset.

Please re-read my replies to you and your replies to me on the last few pages. Basically everything that you are writing and which you are asking, I have already addressed or answered.

Tam said:
I still doubt an unproven system will be installed right even in the first Type 054B. They would have tested it thoroughly before that, whether its a static platform, or through a test ship. I don't believe they would go feely feely deely putting untested techs into a production ship, then wing it and fix problems later.

So far I just heard of several auxiliary ships with that IEP, none of which is really comparable with surface combatants that require serious speed and electricity simultaneously.

AndrewS · Sep 4, 2021

blindsight said:
When 054A is still in mass production, I don't think they have the capacity to mass-produce 054B in parallel anyway. If it's just one ship per year initially, I don't call that mass production even if there's no gap planned ahead.

Look at the shipyards which previously produced the Type-054. They obviously have capacity for 6+ frigates per year.

Also note that in 2019, we saw a different set of shipyards launch 10 destroyers, which are bigger and more complex.

Shipyard production capacity is not an issue

Blitzo · Sep 4, 2021

blindsight said:
So far I just heard of several auxiliary ships with that IEP, none of which is really comparable with surface combatants that require serious speed and electricity simultaneously.

I've already said everything I've had to say.

We will know in due time whether IEPS is sufficiently mature for 054B, or even to confirm the expectation that 054B will have IEPS in the first place.

It is possible that they might build a small batch of 054B first and then pause -- but there is no reason at that stage for us to believe it is the likely path, not yet. At this stage, anything is still possible, and it all depends on how well they have been able to test and verify the various moving parts involved in IEPS, some of which might be able to be done at sea, some of which might be able to be done on land.

sndef888 · Sep 4, 2021

AndrewS said:
The Type-056 doesn't include a helicopter hanger, plus it only has a short-range SAM system.

In terms of costs, a Type-054A costs around $250M?
And my guess is that a Type-056 costs around half this.

Within the First Island Chain, I would expect the Type-056 Corvette and Type-54A Frigate to work together in ASW groups.

That's kind of the issue. Sure, it's quite bit better asw for double the cost, but it has to basically hide behind a destroyer or land support just like an 056 has to. It can't really perform independent operations like how a constellation class or european frigates can

The lack of a quadpacked midrange missile is a really huge disadvantage for China. There are a crapton of frigates from 5eyes/europe/japan/korea with 32 MK41s that can fit 24 SM2s and 32 ESSMs while the 054A can only fit ~24 mid range missiles

China can't exactly send a 052D after every such frigate. It needs a new frigate that can deal with them

Gloire_bb · Sep 4, 2021

sndef888 said:
32 MK41s that can fit 24 SM2s and 32 ESSMs

These are typically dedicated air defense frigates. Expensive and often not available for frigate tasks.
Constellations in this sense are going to be more of an exception than a rule. Numerous exceptions, but exceptions nevertheless.

sndef888 said:
Just my opinion but I feel they should not build so many 054As. It's not really that survivable nowadays with only 24-32 mid range SAMs. If we treat it simply as an ASW platform as many here have said, it feels like more 056s would be more cost effective

1. Mid-range SAMs are getting an update, and we aren't sure yet how far new "mid" is. Even existing HHQ-16 is a massive qualitative step up from HHQ-10. If, say, in the new version it's going to be north of 100 - that's going to be even more of a difference.
2. Current fit is likely capable of saving it from a couple of non-dedicated air raids.What's important - 054a is capable of protecting ships other than itself. Including these very 056s...
3. 056 with its single-directional, short range and weather-dependent HHQ-10 is capable of far protecting itself from far less.

sndef888 said:
24 SM2s and 32 ESSMs

Btw, worth mentioning that this outfit alone costs as much as a corvette.

AndrewS · Sep 4, 2021

sndef888 said:
That's kind of the issue. Sure, it's quite bit better asw for double the cost, but it has to basically hide behind a destroyer or land support just like an 056 has to. It can't really perform independent operations like how a constellation class or european frigates can

In a high-intensity conflict, what independent operations do you actually imagine the Chinese Navy sending a single Frigate on?

We're going to see task groups built from the Chinese fleet of 72+ Corvettes, 70+ Frigates and 40+ modern Destroyers. Remember the Area of Operations is concentrated in the Western Pacific and on carrier groups.

And if you really want independent operations, that is what the Type-054B is for

054B/new generation frigate

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