054B/new generation frigate

antiterror13 · Jul 15, 2023

@Blitzo Thank you very much for your posts above. I learnt alot

In your opinion, do you think "054B" would be IEPS or CODLOG propulsion ? obviously IEPS is better and more efficient.

If PLAN decided to go with CODLOG, what do you think the main reasons and stopping factors not go with IEPS ? Cost or technology ?

Blitzo · Jul 15, 2023

antiterror13 said:
@Blitzo Thank you very much for your posts above. I learnt alot

In your opinion, do you think "054B" would be IEPS or CODLOG propulsion ? obviously IEPS is better and more efficient.

If PLAN decided to go with CODLOG, what do you think the main reasons and stopping factors not go with IEPS ? Cost or technology ?

If they go for something that isn't IEPS, chances are it would be due to technological maturity.

Helius · Jul 15, 2023

Blitzo said:
I believe we've had bidding documents for the new class titled "0XXB" or something like that, causing 054B to be the accepted designation, and virtually the entire Chinese language PLA watching scene names it as 054B as well, so while we do not yet have an official name, it is as close to official as we can get thus far.

Given this is an entirely different ship from 054A, and if it is indeed officially confirmed to be 054B, then people might start wonder what rhyme or reason the PLA has for the designation of their ships.
After all, in the past it was thought that possibly "051" meant steam powered, "052" meant gas powered, "054" meant diesel powered etc (though even that wasn't fully clear because the 053 family existed and are also diesel powered)... and alternatively people thought maybe it was related to hull lineage (but that's also kind of silly because the original 051s have almost no relation to the 051B/C, and the 052D is such a significant difference from the original 052 that it's laughable).

But if 054B does have IEPS or CODLOG propulsion, that is of course different from 054A's CODAD, and 054B's hull is obviously different from 054A's hull as well.

So the answer for our question "why did PLAN name this frigate as 054B," might be "lol, lmao".

[snip]

What makes you reckon the 054B would have CODLOG instead of CODLAD or a diesel-based IEPS (sans gas), which would then explain its designation as it can be considered a natural progression in the electrification of the 054A's existing propulsion method i.e. CODAD, if such naming scheme is indeed based on the type of powertrain used?

Blitzo · Jul 15, 2023

Helius said:
What makes you reckon the 054B would have CODLOG instead of CODLAD or a diesel-based IEPS (sans gas), which would then explain its designation as it can be considered a natural progression in the electrification of the 054A's existing propulsion method i.e. CODAD, if such naming scheme is indeed based on the type of powertrain used?

Virtually all of the rumours for its propulsion arrangement have included a gas turbine in it.

I do agree that we technically can't rule out the possibility of diesel based IEPS or CODLAD until we see the final article, but there's been no hints that it would be a mere electrification of the existing 054A propulsion arrangement. This is leaving aside whether they'd have sufficiently appropriate diesels in size and power to enable effective propulsion of 054B which is 2m wider and 50% heavier than 054A. So overall as it stands, I would be rather surprised if 054B's prime movers were diesel only.

Helius · Jul 16, 2023

Blitzo said:
Virtually all of the rumours for its propulsion arrangement have included a gas turbine in it.

I do agree that we technically can't rule out the possibility of diesel based IEPS or CODLAD until we see the final article, but there's been no hints that it would be a mere electrification of the existing 054A propulsion arrangement. This is leaving aside whether they'd have sufficiently appropriate diesels in size and power to enable effective propulsion of 054B which is 2m wider and 50% heavier than 054A. So overall as it stands, I would be rather surprised if 054B's prime movers were diesel only.

Another possibility could be a 5 or 6x diesel arrangement instead of the current 4x diesels on the 054A, which could be one way of addressing the increased power requirements for the 054B, considering that even in a CODLOG/CODLAG config you'd still need additional gas turbine(s) on top of the diesels you already have to complete that power arrangement anyway.

But ofc space and efficiency is also part of the consideration, so it's entirely possible combined diesel and/or gas may work out more energy efficient depending on the specific generators used within the given space, than solely diesel, I suppose.

para80 · Jul 16, 2023

FairAndUnbiased said:
its finally hit English MSM.

The article was in hiatus for a bit over a week as Xavier had other things to focus on for publishing. Also as Blitzo pointed out, the target audience is not folks frequenting SDF, let alone Chinese social media etc. You'd be surprised how little is still known in wider naval enthusiast circles on all matters PLAN.

Cheers, Alex.

TK3600 · Jul 16, 2023

Blitzo said:
In terms of being revolutionary, I do agree with you a bit in that scalability and future proofness is a focus for it as much as it is for other frigates.

But 054B is actually a bit notable in that if it does have the long rumoured MVDC IEPS, it would mark a rare occasion in which a PLAN ship in a given role/category has a significantly more advanced key subsystem (in this case propulsion/powertrain/hotel load power system) than almost every other contemporary ship in the same category out there.

Was 055 subsystem not ahead of contemporary? It should still be ahead of contemporary even today.

dingyibvs · Jul 16, 2023

Blitzo said:
I believe we've had bidding documents for the new class titled "0XXB" or something like that, causing 054B to be the accepted designation, and virtually the entire Chinese language PLA watching scene names it as 054B as well, so while we do not yet have an official name, it is as close to official as we can get thus far.

Given this is an entirely different ship from 054A, and if it is indeed officially confirmed to be 054B, then people might start wonder what rhyme or reason the PLA has for the designation of their ships.
After all, in the past it was thought that possibly "051" meant steam powered, "052" meant gas powered, "054" meant diesel powered etc (though even that wasn't fully clear because the 053 family existed and are also diesel powered)... and alternatively people thought maybe it was related to hull lineage (but that's also kind of silly because the original 051s have almost no relation to the 051B/C, and the 052D is such a significant difference from the original 052 that it's laughable).

But if 054B does have IEPS or CODLOG propulsion, that is of course different from 054A's CODAD, and 054B's hull is obviously different from 054A's hull as well.

So the answer for our question "why did PLAN name this frigate as 054B," might be "lol, lmao".

I'd be careful with word choice here, because the Constellation class, Type 26 and 054B are all intended for slightly different roles and also have different displacements despite all technically being modern "frigates".
Their capability profile are all slightly different, but I would say that if 054B has some of the features that has been rumoured (namely IEPS) it may have a good argument to be among the most technologically advanced of the bunch.

And while the 054A itself is certainly outdated, by virtue of networking and a relatively upgradeable configuration, it can still very much be relevant even in a high intensity conflict in certain scenarios. I would say 054A is better described as "not as future proof" and generally "not as advanced or capable" as current modern frigates.

Didn't pop3 say that the reason 054B is coming out later than expected is because of increased requirements? Perhaps originally the 054B was planned to be just an upgraded 054A, perhaps with the previously seen lantern mast. Later on, with the new two face AESA and then perhaps the new propulsion the hull had to be entirely redesigned and it ended up becoming a new ship. As such, while the designation of 054B might have stayed up to now, it's possible that by the time it's commissioned the name would've changed to something else.

Blitzo · Jul 16, 2023

dingyibvs said:
Didn't pop3 say that the reason 054B is coming out later than expected is because of increased requirements? Perhaps originally the 054B was planned to be just an upgraded 054A, perhaps with the previously seen lantern mast. Later on, with the new two face AESA and then perhaps the new propulsion the hull had to be entirely redesigned and it ended up becoming a new ship. As such, while the designation of 054B might have stayed up to now, it's possible that by the time it's commissioned the name would've changed to something else.

Yes, I believe the current 054B we see is due to the revised requirements and likely substantial redesigns as technology advanced etc -- but the question is whether the final ship will still be called 054B, and at this stage we have no reason to think it will.
After all, if the project stuck with this name throughout and went through a Theseus' ship from a program management/requirements point of view, it may well be that it won't end up with a different name.

TK3600 said:
Was 055 subsystem not ahead of contemporary? It should still be ahead of contemporary even today.

055's subsystems could be said to be world class at the time, but not clear cut ahead of everyone else in the way that successful implementation of MVDC IEPS would be if 054B has it.
If 054B has MVDC IEPS, it would literally be the first frontline surface combatant in the world to have it.

antiterror13 · Jul 16, 2023

Blitzo said:
Yes, I believe the current 054B we see is due to the revised requirements and likely substantial redesigns as technology advanced etc -- but the question is whether the final ship will still be called 054B, and at this stage we have no reason to think it will.
After all, if the project stuck with this name throughout and went through a Theseus' ship from a program management/requirements point of view, it may well be that it won't end up with a different name.

055's subsystems could be said to be world class at the time, but not clear cut ahead of everyone else in the way that successful implementation of MVDC IEPS would be if 054B has it.
If 054B has MVDC IEPS, it would literally be the first frontline surface combatant in the world to have it.

I agree, even Type 45 has IEPS, but it is HVAC, so Alternating Current. MVDC (Direct Current) is significantly more complicated and better

So 054B potentially could be the first one

054B/new generation frigate

antiterror13

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Blitzo

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Helius

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Blitzo

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Helius

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para80

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TK3600

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dingyibvs

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antiterror13

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