054/A FFG Thread II

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
There was no need to upgrade the seeker. Because the late 90s SM-2s had digital rear receivers (which allows for synchronization with ICWI waveforms), they were already hardware-wise compatible with ICWI on the MFR APAR under development. The final touch was just a software update.

The actual hardware upgrade was the datalink: AEGIS uses S-band datalinks, but the new Euro frigates would’ve had only X-band available.


Why would ICWI increase range over CWI? If anything, it should be the other way around as the latter deposits more energy on target than the former (no interruptions nor target switching).

Isolation. With CWI, you are transmitting and receiving at the same time, right at the same element. There is interference between the two as they cross each other, and a higher noise level. It is known that isolation --- having a separate cycle for transmit and receive --- is why pulse radars have significantly greater range than CWI. In essence, ICW is a pseudo pulse radar.

The emitters here also track the target and illuminate at the same time. They are not pure slaved illuminators, but more like what you see with land based SAM FCRs.
 
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nlalyst

Junior Member
Registered Member
Isolation. With CWI, you are transmitting and receiving at the same time, right at the same element. There is interference between the two as they cross each other, and a higher noise level. It is known that isolation --- having a separate cycle for transmit and receive --- is why pulse radars have significantly greater range than CWI. In essence, ICW is a pseudo pulse radar.

The emitters here also track the target and illuminate at the same time. They are not pure slaved illuminators, but more like what you see with land based SAM FCRs.
For the sake of our other forum members, let’s first have the terminology clarified, to avoid further confusion.

CWI = Continuous Wave Illumination
ICW = Interrupted Continuous Wave

These are very different concepts. ICW systems are radars. CWI are not. Illuminators don’t have receiver electronics.
Further reading on FM (frequency modulated) ICW radar:
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Furthermore, there are CW radars that use separate antennas for the transmit and receive roles, and therefore don’t suffer from interference.

Now, there are CWI radar systems that incorporate illuminators, and these are called ICWI. Among naval systems, the Dutch APAR is a well known example.

ICWI = Interrupted Continuous Wave Illumination.

ICWI and CWI differ insofar as the latter emits a continuous stream of RF radiation, whereas the former emits it with interruptions, time multiplexing between a number of targets. Neither receive the emitted signal back. If both systems would have the same transmitter, then CWI would deposit more energy on target than ICWI, and would therefore have higher theoretical range.
 
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nlalyst

Junior Member
Registered Member
Continuation of prior post.

CW radars with large separation between antennas are classified as bi-static radars. An illuminator in conjuction with a SARH missile is often given as an example of bi-static CW radar.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
For the sake of our other forum members, let’s first have the terminology clarified, to avoid further confusion.

CWI = Continuous Wave Illumination
ICW = Interrupted Continuous Wave

These are very different concepts. ICW systems are radars. CWI are not. Illuminators don’t have receiver electronics.
Further reading on FM (frequency modulated) ICW radar:
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Furthermore, there are CW radars that use separate antennas for the transmit and receive roles, and therefore don’t suffer from interference.

Now, there are CWI radar systems that incorporate illuminators, and these are called ICWI. Among naval systems, the Dutch APAR is a well known example.

ICWI = Interrupted Continuous Wave Illumination.

ICWI and CWI differ insofar as the latter emits a continuous stream of RF radiation, whereas the former emits it with interruptions, time multiplexing between a number of targets. Neither receive the emitted signal back. If both systems would have the same transmitter, then CWI would deposit more energy on target than ICWI, and would therefore have higher theoretical range.

There is no time multiplexing between different targets. In fact the link you provided, doesn't show it. Instead formally it is a pulse radar because it has both transmit and receive cycles.

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Frequency Modulated interrupted Continuous Wave, FMiCW - Radar or also-called iFMCW- Radar, radar gets a special position within the radar technologies. During the measuring process, the transmit signal is switched off temporarily. Formally, the radar is thus a
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. During the shutdown of the transmitting antenna, the frequency generation in the transmitter, however, continues to operate and provides the receiver with the necessary for downconversion frequency. The measuring process for determining the distance is a measure of the frequency difference between the actual transmitter frequency and the carrier frequency of the echo signals as in an
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. So it is not a pure runtime measurement similar to a pulse radar with
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.

The shutdown process is equivalent to the receive cycle of the pulse radar and this can be used to extract range measurement.

The use of FMICW in AESA is because an AESA module has to share a single antenna element between Rx and Tx circuits, with the access to the element controlled by the circulator.

The interruption from transmit to receive in an ICW radar is similar to the duty cycle of a pulse radar. During the interruption phase of the ICW, the echo is being received.

The fact that a pulse radar attains much greater ranges than any CWI radar belies the importance of Rx Tx isolation over continued exposure. Simultaneous Rx and Tx in antenna creates interference and noise, which requires that the Rx echo has to be higher in order to overcome the interference from the Tx signal. This lessens the sensitivity and receive gain of the antenna.

To gain the advantages of isolation, CW or FMCW radars as they are called, use dual arrays, one transmit and one receive. Many FCRs were like that, and there are so many examples of earlier Soviet Cold War fire control radars that are this way. In fact, there are modern radars used for flight telemetry are still this way.

img05-006-04.jpg

However, finding dual arrays CW radars to be bulky, the Soviets went with mono array designs, and this is where we see well known radars such as the Tombstone and Flaplid radars for the S-300 missile complex. As you have Rx and Tx on a mono-array, with increased noise and interference, the Soviets used FMCW or Frequency Modulated Continuous Wave, where "chirps" or peaks are added to the wave at certain intervals. This increased the signal to noise ratio to help overcome the interference. As CW is incapable of range measurement, the timing of the echoes of these chirps are used as markers for range measurement.

Soviet SAM fire control radars with target illumination are pure radars and they are not one way illuminators. They use the echoes to track the targets while the same echoes are used to illuminate the target for the missiles. This successful implementation led to the next generation of Soviet SAMs, which includes one relevant example, which is the Buk missile and its Fire Dome radar. Buk is navalized into the Shtil missile, and the Orekh "Front Domes" that illuminate for this missile carry over this working principle. So we arrived to the Sovremenny, then to the HQ-16, and then to the 054A.

So now we take a step further into AESA. You can have circuits that are transmit only, and circuits that are receive only, but to maintain the isolation principle, all the transmit elements would be in one array, and all the receive elements in a second array. We go back to the dual array. However these are dedicated CW radars. In the case of APAR, which is also a pulse radar, it would have circuits similar to this:

media-1296917-290x249903.jpg


You got a Tx circuit with an HPA (High Power Amp). On the bottom you got the Rx circuit with an LNA (Low Noise Amp). The Circulator lets the Tx access the single antenna element during the transmit phase, then cuts it off to let the Rx access the antenna element during the receive phase.

What changes between Pulse to ICW on APAR is the waveform while still using the same circuit, with the same Tx Rx cycles. In ICW, the wave generator continues to generate the form internally even if it has no access to the antenna. By the time it can transmit again, the form of the wave remains as if it was not interrupted at all.

Because CW is namely about average power, with ICW, during pauses the circuit can build up power from capacitors and burst them during the transmit phase, much like a pulse radar. This is where FMICW comes in, and this further improves the signal to noise ratio.

With the echoes resembling that of a pulse doppler radar, a missile seeker working on pure CW has to be reworked for this new emitter.

But the most important part of why we will have a new HQ-16 variant and the new emitter panels are ICW is simply because of this.

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SAST or Shanghai Academy of Spaceflight Technology are responsible for the systems design of the HQ-16 and its radars. You got an Interrupted Illuminating Radar Seeker right there in their webpage. Conveniently in the same picture showing the seeker in display, we got a Type 054A model right behind it!

Perusing the website further, you get this.

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Which is the new generation HQ-16 targeting and guidance vehicle featuring dual band active arrays.

And then you have this, which is the HQ-16 itself. This is obvious that SAST is behind the missile.

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Interesting enough, the webpage also has this 3D radar.

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This radar has appeared on Test Ship 892 before. Test Ship 892 is also used to test the Dual Sided array and the new target illuminators on the same ship and on the same time.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Now here's the funny part. by78 posted this in the forum last year, and no one noticed another thing in the ship, as they are focused on the dual sided array on the mast.

50130145017_ad5d47192b_k.jpg

The other thing new on the ship is on top of the bridge itself.

target_illuminator.png

That's the new target illuminators being tested on this ship, and which we are now seeing on the new Type 054A batch.

(Don't mind the radar behind it. Its an FMCW radar with dual arrays, one transmit, one receive used for flight telemetry for missile testing; the ship has previously tested the YJ-12 firings.)
 

nlalyst

Junior Member
Registered Member
The fact that a pulse radar attains much greater ranges than any CWI radar belies the importance of Rx Tx isolation over continued exposure.
IExcuse me. Even after I explained the difference between CWI and ICW you continue on with the confused narrative?

CWI does not have a receiver. Think of SPG-62. A comparison of transmitter only CWI with a pulse radar that has both transmitters and receivers is comparing apples and oranges.
With the echoes resembling that of a pulse doppler radar, a missile seeker working on pure CW has to be reworked for this new emitter.
Again this is not true in general. It maybe the case for HQ-16, but it certainly wasn’t the case for SM-2.
 

xyqq

Junior Member
Registered Member
FFG-539 Wuhu

One Z-9 (#93) over the deck and another in distance:

539helicopters.jpg

#93 Z-9 taking off:

539helicopter.jpg

Firing anti-submarine rockets (steam from a provisional water spray system):

539rockets.jpg
 
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Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
IExcuse me. Even after I explained the difference between CWI and ICW you continue on with the confused narrative?

CWI does not have a receiver. Think of SPG-62. A comparison of transmitter only CWI with a pulse radar that has both transmitters and receivers is comparing apples and oranges.

Again this is not true in general. It maybe the case for HQ-16, but it certainly wasn’t the case for SM-2.

SPG-62 is an exception in the history of CW emitters and radars, and you cannot use this as the general example. Monostatic CW radar applications are as common as the parking radar on your car, to the radar guns police use to nail your car's speed on the highway. Another is their use as altimeters such as on helicopters.

Plus I am not talking about the SM-2. I am talking about the HQ-16, and the history back to the Buk and other Soviet SAMs. SPG-62 cannot be considered a radar as being one way.

Some FMCW radars which are monostatic. These radars track the targets on their own and illuminate them. The Square Pair radar used by the Soviets.

3502930882_afaca29da8_c.jpg

or the Low Blow radar.

pic4121.jpg

Later you progress from having separate transmit and receive antennas, to only a single antenna simultaneously transmitting and receiving, such as the Fire Dome for the Buk, which probably led to the Front Domes.

Panda hobbies 9A39M1-Gadfly-TELAR-FInland (7).jpg

Probably the most famous, Flap Lid or Tombstone used with the S300. And of course, you have Fire Dome used with the Buk, which probably led to Front Dome for the ships. On the Western side, those using FMCW includes the MPQ-53 for the Patriot, the Mk. 92 FCR on the OHP, and the STIR, which also has its Japanese and Korean equivalents used in European, Japanese and Korean navies.

Some active guided missile seekers are monostatic CWI or FMCW applications. Enclosed is the Brimstone antitank missile and the Swedish RBS-15 antiship missile.

active.png rbs-15.png


The FMCW radar used on Ship 892 used for missile testing. This goes back to the dual separate transmit and receive arrays.

892-20.jpg
 

nlalyst

Junior Member
Registered Member
SPG-62 is an exception in the history of CW emitters and radars, and you cannot use this as the general example. ….

Plus I am not talking about the SM-2. I am talking about the HQ-16, and the history back to the Buk and other Soviet SAMs. SPG-62 cannot be considered a radar as being one way.
You made general statements about CWI and ICW to support your hypothesis about the updated HQ-16 FCR and missile seeker. While your assertions about CWI and ICW are not true, your hypothesis about the HQ-16 is entirely plausible.

SPG-62 is not that special. It’s just a CWI for SARH missiles slaved to a tracking radar. In this particular system the tracking radar is physically separate from the illuminator. SPG-60 has the tracking radar and CWI illuminator share the same antenna, but the SARH CWI is still electronically a separate system. A more modern example is the Saab C200, which uses the latest Thales GaN based CWI. Please don’t equate CWI with a CW radar. Even when integrated, they are still separate systems.

CWI (CONTINUOUS WAVE ILLUMINATOR) - A surface or aircraft-based CW transmitter employed in semiactive homing missile systems where the transmitter illuminates the target and the missile senses the reflected energy. The transmitter also provides a reference signal to the missile rear receiver to allow determination of range-rate data and target identification. CW transmitter emissions are sometimes coded corresponding to the associated missile receiver codes to reduce the possibility of the "missile accepting commands of extraneous si
 
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Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
You made general statements about CWI and ICW to support your hypothesis about the updated HQ-16 FCR and missile seeker. While your assertions about CWI and ICW are not true, your hypothesis about the HQ-16 is entirely plausible.

SPG-62 is not that special. It’s just a CWI for SARH missiles slaved to a tracking radar. In this particular system the tracking radar is physically separate from the illuminator. SPG-60 has the tracking radar and CWI illuminator share the same antenna, but the SARH CWI is still electronically a separate system. Please don’t equate CWI with a CW radar.

CWI (CONTINUOUS WAVE ILLUMINATOR) - A surface or aircraft-based CW transmitter employed in semiactive homing missile systems where the transmitter illuminates the target and the missile senses the reflected energy. The transmitter also provides a reference signal to the missile rear receiver to allow determination of range-rate data and target identification. CW transmitter emissions are sometimes coded corresponding to the associated missile receiver codes to reduce the possibility of the "missile accepting commands of extraneous si

Assertions? You showed a link and a text, and the description of ICW there does not match your description of multiplexing targets. The I simply means Interrupted, and the phrase is a paradox because you cannot have Interrupted and be Continuous. Thus ICW is a form of pulse radar just as the text describes.

Not talking about SPG-60 either. I am talking about the Soviet FMCW systems used for tracking and missile targeting. They are not separate systems. The beam used to track the target is the same beam used to illuminate the target. Once again, you see this in a number of Western systems too, such as the MPQ-53 for the Patriot. There is also the STIR by Thales whose design is used in a wide number of navies.

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