054/A FFG Thread II

[FriedRiceNSpice]

Why is China purchasing 20 more units? At least from CMO, the Type 054 has really limited capacity to do anything in a conflict with the US. They seem very well geared for low intensity conflicts.

Unless they're going to upgrade the missiles?

Not every platform needs to have potent offensive capabilities to be useful.

054As are perfectly capable of conducting ASW operations, escorting / protecting convoys and shipping routes, performing patrol duty, and serving as additional picket ships.

By having enough frigates to carry out these duties, it frees up the more high end, expensive, and scarce destroyers for other duties, such as conducting offensive operations.

 

[Gloire_bb]

Why is China purchasing 20 more units? At least from CMO, the Type 054 has really limited capacity to do anything in a conflict with the US. They seem very well geared for low intensity conflicts.

Unless they're going to upgrade the missiles?

Can't what?
Going by a simple list of boxes, for a general-purpose frigate:

1. Can they perform basic frigate functions?
yes outright. Doesn't require much from the ship - it has endurance, it has speed, it has gun, it has helicopter.
2. Can they perform AA mission?
HHQ-16 is clearly getting an update, so we may go with "Yes". Given the potential of this missile system, we may reasonably safely assume it to again return as a competitive area-defense SAM. Not a world-beating capability, but reasonable. The replacement frigate may need to look into electronic part of the engagement cycle.
3.Can they perform ASW?
ASW suite was updated not that long ago; the ship has a full suite of sonars, torpedos, saw mortar, and ASW rockets. New construction ships are probably getting the ability to operate Z-20;
As a con, 054A will clearly lack higher silent speeds(characteristic of IEP) and the ability to operate prospective large as USVs and ASuVs, but this isn't a deal-breaker as of yet. Yes, but we note that the need for "054B" starts to show itself. However, worth noting, that while the world standard for ASW frigate is definitely higher - if we assume that 054A was reasonable half a decade before - it still probably is right now.
4.Can they perform ASuW?
8 reasonably modern ASCM for a long-range strike, HHQ-16 for closer ranged engagements. Not a world-beater, not a slouch. Average, but average goes as yes. It's worth noting, however, that (1) 054A is probably weaker in this aspect than likely opposition, and (2)it isn't terribly important. But newer frigate may go for more in this aspect. 802 missile isn't a world-beater - but it also can be updated.
5.Can they survive?
Electronics, EW and datalink suits are being kept up to date; self-defense suit is good in AA, probably only average for torpedoes, but very few modern ships really shine here. Again - sounds quite average, but average means yes.

We can go by further and further missions, but I believe the result will be the same. Going by the 80/20 rule, for 80% of missions 054A is OK - and will likely remain so for a while.
Platform, however, slowly starts to show signs of obsolescence - and not in missiles and cells, but in spaces and equipment for deployable craft and propulsion - and those can't be added to existing or updated ships. This implies that in a medium-term perspective, perhaps no later than ~2030, this frigate needs to be taken out of sensitive screens (carriers) by something more capable.
But everything else, up to and including higher-end surface strike groups and asw sweeps- remains open for them.

 

[Blitzo]

Why is China purchasing 20 more units? At least from CMO

Assuming you mean Command Modern Air and Naval Operations -- well, there's your problem lol.

Seriously, that particular game/simulator is able to do good detail you can control a lot of things, but if you're using it to judge capabilities of contemporary, in service systems, then you are doing it wrong. The numbers and balancing of the systems in the game are educated guesses at best.

But yes, given the advancements we can physically see with the replacement of the old illuminators, the missiles are likely going to enjoy enhancements either in themselves, or in terms of the ship's own guidance/engagement cycle, or both. Not to mention the missiles have almost certainly enjoyed iterative improvements from when they first entered service nearly a decade and a half ago.

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

Seriously, that particular game/simulator is able to do good detail you can control a lot of things

There's less there than meets the eye. You need to get the "Professional Edition" to do basic things like modify the stats of the systems (to correct the obvious bias given who made the game), which you can't just pick up on Steam. But if you have a US.gov security clearance and a few thousand burning a hole in your pocket I'm sure something can be worked out.

 

[Blitzo]

There's less there than meets the eye. You need to get the "Professional Edition" to do basic things like modify the stats of the systems (to correct the obvious bias given who made the game), which you can't just pick up on Steam. But if you have a US.gov security clearance and a few thousand burning a hole in your pocket I'm sure something can be worked out.

When I say "you can control a lot of things" I am not talking about balancing the stats of the systems.
I am talking about normal simulator things.

That's why I said the capabilities are educated guesses at best, because the normal consumer is stuck with the educated guesses of the base game/simulator.

 

[antiterror13]

Not every platform needs to have potent offensive capabilities to be useful.

054As are perfectly capable of conducting ASW operations, escorting / protecting convoys and shipping routes, performing patrol duty, and serving as additional picket ships.

By having enough frigates to carry out these duties, it frees up the more high end, expensive, and scarce destroyers for other duties, such as conducting offensive operations.

And cheaper and simpler to operate. The USN almost always use AB to conduct anything which mostly overkill and too expensive, very inefficient. Thats why now the USN start thinking to purchase some frigates

 

[Tam]

Why is China purchasing 20 more units? At least from CMO, the Type 054 has really limited capacity to do anything in a conflict with the US. They seem very well geared for low intensity conflicts.

Unless they're going to upgrade the missiles?

Look at the ASW side, which can also be said of the seemingly useless Type 056A. The ships with the TAS & VDS are going to be invaluable for their ASW.

Yes, the next 20 appears to be going to have upgraded missiles. Likely a new version of the HHQ-16 while the possibility of a new missile is also open, such as an HHQ-16 replacement.

EW are kept up to date on the latest ships, although older ships require an update. EW is top priority, even the 054 refit got the latest EW updates. People don't speak on it much, since the typical Internet watcher always focuses on the missiles, but the 052 refit, the 053H3 refit, the 051B refit and the Project 956E refits all feature the latest EW kits. The last four 054A has the latest EW kits that were also introduced with the 053H3 refit, and the next 20 are likely to be fitted with them. So far the 054A/P is also going to use these. The earlier 1st to 26th Type 054A still feature an older kit and needs a refit on these later on.

Communications, in particular, satellite communications are kept thoroughly up to date with all ships throughout the fleet, and these are the most mysterious upgrade in the PLAN for what potentially they are and what they can do. There are much greater focus on the new SATCOMs and datalinks than say sensors on the newest batches, and they are among the defining features of the upgrades in the last batch of both 054A and 056A. In addition, the new SATCOMs are being retrofitted on older ships, which underlines their primary importance.

Latest 054A are still up to date due to the soft upgrades, although it can be said that the older 054As needed to be upgraded to the latest standard.

 

[Tyler]

Not every platform needs to have potent offensive capabilities to be useful.

054As are perfectly capable of conducting ASW operations, escorting / protecting convoys and shipping routes, performing patrol duty, and serving as additional picket ships.

By having enough frigates to carry out these duties, it frees up the more high end, expensive, and scarce destroyers for other duties, such as conducting offensive operations.

How much more expensive is the type 52D?

 

[iantsai]

How much more expensive is the type 52D?

052D is double in tonnage and weapons comparing with 054A and equiped with AESA radar, so the price may be triple or even more.

 

[gongolongo]

Look at the ASW side, which can also be said of the seemingly useless Type 056A. The ships with the TAS & VDS are going to be invaluable for their ASW.

Yes, the next 20 appears to be going to have upgraded missiles. Likely a new version of the HHQ-16 while the possibility of a new missile is also open, such as an HHQ-16 replacement.

EW are kept up to date on the latest ships, although older ships require an update. EW is top priority, even the 054 refit got the latest EW updates. People don't speak on it much, since the typical Internet watcher always focuses on the missiles, but the 052 refit, the 053H3 refit, the 051B refit and the Project 956E refits all feature the latest EW kits. The last four 054A has the latest EW kits that were also introduced with the 053H3 refit, and the next 20 are likely to be fitted with them. So far the 054A/P is also going to use these. The earlier 1st to 26th Type 054A still feature an older kit and needs a refit on these later on.

Communications, in particular, satellite communications are kept thoroughly up to date with all ships throughout the fleet, and these are the most mysterious upgrade in the PLAN for what potentially they are and what they can do. There are much greater focus on the new SATCOMs and datalinks than say sensors on the newest batches, and they are among the defining features of the upgrades in the last batch of both 054A and 056A. In addition, the new SATCOMs are being retrofitted on older ships, which underlines their primary importance.

Latest 054A are still up to date due to the soft upgrades, although it can be said that the older 054As needed to be upgraded to the latest standard.

Makes sense. Thanks for the answer. My biggest concern is the AA missiles equipped just seem so limited. But if they're getting upgraded that changes things.

YJ-83's and HHQ-16's seem pretty limited in performance but having cheaper ships that can do effective ASW seems handy.