054/A FFG Thread II

[Tam]

You would notice that it has two target illuminators for the HQ-1 6, not four like on the 054A. The phase array is the SR2410C that is used in the Bangladesh C13B and the Pakistan 054A/P. Just repeating my theory on this radar, on the 055, there is a quartet of small arrays one front over the bridge, back in the mast, two between the IFF arrays of the Type 346B. The aspect ratio, proportions and size of this phase array is similar to the quartet arrays on the 055. Instead of designing a new radar from scratch, they took one of the arrays, and then rotated it. This radar is likely to be working on C-band, hence the C suffix. The quartet C-band AESA array would slot between the X-band four sided AESA on the top, and the S-band Type 346B AESA on the bottom of the 055.

On the export frigate, I suspect this is based on the 053H3/F22P Jiangwei platform. What they did is change the external sheet metal for a stealthy look. But the proportions and the locations seem the same. I have a theory before that it is possible to put an 8 cell VLS for HQ-16 on a Jiangwei, replace the Type 345 fire control radar for the HQ-7 and put the HQ-16 target director there on top, and another target director at the rear over the hanger. On the Jiangwei, the VLS might protrude through the deck but you can put a sloped wall around the VLS, just like the Thai Navy Jianghu that was 'Westernized' with a MK41 VLS. On this export frigate, the deck on the bow might have been raised as a whole.

On a theoretical Type 054A midlife refit, I would envision the Type 382 and Type 364 radars on the Type 054A to be replaced by the "Type 383" dual band dual back AESA that was spotted on the Type 075, along with the SR2410C. This would fit nicely, the Type 383 having S-band and X-band, with the SR2410C being C-band, allows the ship to cover a range of bands without interference from each other.

 

[Tam]

Tweet by JMSDF.

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１１／２８、中国海軍艦艇１隻が対馬海峡を北上し一時的に日本海に進出し、１１／２９、再度東シナ海に向け航行したことを海上自衛隊が確認しました。 防衛省・自衛隊は、中国海軍艦艇の我が国周辺海域における動向について引き続き注視し、警戒監視活動等に万全を期してまいります。
Translated from Japanese by
On 11/28, the Maritime Self-Defense Force confirmed that a Chinese naval ship went north on the Tsushima Strait, temporarily entered the Sea of Japan, and sailed again to the East China Sea. The Ministry of Defense and the Self-Defense Forces will continue to pay close attention to the trends of Chinese naval vessels in the waters around Japan, and make every effort to monitor and monitor them.

 

[Tam]

Type 054A in action as it shadows the USS Gabrielle Giffords.

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combat ship USS GABRIELLE

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refueling 21 Dec in the South

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Sea from oiler USNS PECOS T-AO197; prepping a MQ-8B

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UAV on 24 Dec while a

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Type 054

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shadows

 

[Bhurki]

Type 057 concept, Full load 6500t, 48 Uvls

 

[Tam]

That is nice work. But from the radar point of view, do you still need the Type 366 system even after you get the X-band AESA? The ship instead lacks an identifiable
S-band search radar.

If I could communicate with the artist, I would rather like to see the integrated tower added four medium sized panels below the X-band radar. This would be your S-band radar, as the ship obviously lacks one and it doesn't make sense to lack a set. The S-band radar would be your mini scaled down Type 346 variant. The Type 366 radar and its bulb would be deleted. Instead I might add another pair of ESM units on top of the deckhouse behind the EO units. The Type 055 has three pairs of ESM units hidden on top of the deckhouse. Finally there should be a panel beneath each bridge wing. This is for the ECM.

If you do that, this is the Chinese Future Frigate that I envisioned.

 

[Bhurki]

That is nice work. But from the radar point of view, do you still need the Type 366 system even after you get the X-band AESA? The ship instead lacks an identifiable
S-band search radar.

If I could communicate with the artist, I would rather like to see the integrated tower added four medium sized panels below the X-band radar. This would be your S-band radar, as the ship obviously lacks one and it doesn't make sense to lack a set. The S-band radar would be your mini scaled down Type 346 variant. The Type 366 radar and its bulb would be deleted. Instead I might add another pair of ESM units on top of the deckhouse behind the EO units. The Type 055 has three pairs of ESM units hidden on top of the deckhouse. Finally there should be a panel beneath each bridge wing. This is for the ECM.

If you do that, this is the Chinese Future Frigate that I envisioned.

Check the bridge overhang corners, there is a flat panel in each corner, a scaled down S/C band unit.

 

[Tam]

Check the bridge overhang corners, there is a flat panel in each corner, looks like a scaled down S/C band unit.

Not really. That's a feature copied from the Type 055. This is more likely another ECM unit. Its also far too small to be an effective search radar, and that position is better served as an ECM or ESM unit intended to deal with a threat heading towards the ship's side flying low. Search radars need to be placed higher on a ship so you can look deeper down the radar horizon. These corners are just too low.

There are bars that are on top of the four corners of the deckhouse. These can be used for a four faced fixed set of surface search radars, using C-band arrays like those on the SR2410C. But these can also be IFF. These are not a high position either.

It would be better if they take out the ESM and SIGINT antenna on top, reinforce the platform, and put a "Type 383" on it. That's the dual backed, dual band radar introduced with the Type 075. I don't think they introduced a brand new radar system just to be used on a few --- like three --- Type 075 alone.

Once the Type 383 takes the top position, I will take the replaced TACAN, ESM and SIGINT antenna on top of the artist's ship, and put it where the SATCOM behind the VLS is. The SATCOM I would move forward on top of the deckhouse.

If you note the FREMM frigate next to it, it shows you a lesson in radar and sensor positioning. On top of the FREMM, you have an AESA search radar that is hidden inside the spherical dome. Probably a single or dual faced unit that rotates. Below it and around the mast you see the IFF rings and a ring of surface search radar. On the back on the second mast, you see ESM antenna. These units are placed in a high position so they can see better down the radar horizon, spotting a sea skimmer ahead for earlier warning time.

Or lets not touch the tower at all. Instead, I will go to the rear of the ship, where the SATCOM is behind the rear VLS. I would remove that SATCOM and put a second mast where I would put a Type 383 radar set on top of it high. This is similar to the Type 075 where the Type 383 is on the aft mast and the SATCOMs are on top of the deckhouse, or where on the Type 054A, the Type 364 radar sits on top of the funnel. The SATCOM goes to the top of the deckhouse.

There is one other alternative and that is to "Zumwalt" the thing. In the Zumwalt, they cut off the S-band radars to save on the invoice, leaving only the X-band radars. They programmed an air search mode into the remaining X-band radar instead. The reason why you don't want to do that is because the X-band is not going to have the search range and volume as S-band does. Its like painting a room with a 2" paint brush instead of a 10" paint roller.

 

[Totoro]

I dont think s band is even needed for a frigate, unless we are talking about a dedicated aaw ship. If it's going to be using 70-100 km ranged hq16 or quad packed shorter ranged missiles, a multifunction x band should be more than enough to both do volume air search up to 200-300 km away and target engagement.
Even more so if the future missiles feature active radar self guidance.

 

[Bhurki]

@Tam
Adding a dedicated S/C band would negate the price benefit that a frigate would provide over building a destroyer.
That, and -16Uvls, is pretty much the only thing that makes it different from being a 052d in terms of a2/ad destroyer.

Also, I'm not sure if that's the best position to put ECM, rather it is for volume search.
In terms of height, its the same position as 052d and 055.
For ECM, putting 2 larger sensors on broadside makes much more sense like on 055.

 

[Tam]

I dont think s band is even needed for a frigate, unless we are talking about a dedicated aaw ship. If it's going to be using 70-100 km ranged hq16 or quad packed shorter ranged missiles, a multifunction x band should be more than enough to both do volume air search up to 200-300 km away and target engagement.
Even more so if the future missiles feature active radar self guidance.

Do you ever see a frigate without an S-band radar? How many do you know don't have one?

S-band are not just used by dedicated AAW warships. Whoever told you that? Its the most commonly used air volume search band for decades and for hundreds of warships.

Fregat Top Plate radar used by ships such as Sovremenny class use S-band even for let's say Shtil missiles with only 40 to 50km. Type 054A frigate uses Type 382 radar which has S-band and reaches to around 250km to 300km. Type 054 uses Type 363S radar which is S-band while using only HQ-7 missiles only up to 15km. Export corvettes like Bangladesh C13 use Type 360S radar, also S-band, while only having HQ-10 for their AA. Algerian C28 uses SMART-S Mk II for its main radar, that's S-band, and its equipped with only HQ-7. None of these ships are dedicated AAW ships.

Type 45 destroyer uses active guidance on Aster 15 and 30 missiles. SAMPSON radar it uses is on S-band and this is backed by a Type 1850 L-band radar. Admiral Gorshkov class uses Redut missiles that are actively guided. The Funke radar it uses for search is an S-band. The Gorshkov class also uses the Poliment X-band radar for missile fire control. When you have both S and X-band, the S-band can be used for searching new targets, while the X-band is tracking your most potentially threatening targets. French FREMM uses Herkales, also an S-band for air search, and has STIR that provides X-band fire control. You can go and on with examples. FFG(X) uses EASR, which is S-band, while using SPQ-9B which is an X-band.

This frigate is about saving cost. It uses a small AESA S-band. X-band is provided by a small STIR which acts as gunnery fire control.

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S-band is also a bit more resistant to LO measures than X-band. Something to keep in mind when you're dealing with LO targets.

X-band needs to be extremely powerful and hugely expensive to reach around 300km to overcome radar attenuation, while a simpler --- cheaper --- and less powerful S-band radar can reach that range easily. There is going to be compromises if an AESA radar has to do long rang search and track targets closely, because you can only allocate a fraction of the elements for each. This is why warships have relied on multiple radars, and in modern times, dual and even triple band AESA set ups. A single MFR is not going to outperform dual radars, one being dedicated for search and acquisition, and the other for close tracking of targets for engaging them with weapons. Even in the Sachsen and De Seven Provincien class of frigates, where you have the X-band MFR APAR, but in those frigates you still have the large L-band SMART-L doing the air search. I can go on and on with every example of ships. Even if S-band is not used, they use L or C-bands as a substitute, followed by an X-band for fire control of guns and missiles. Sachsen is L and X band for example, while Akizuki is C and X band. But you simply don't see a warship that uses only one particular band except for FACs, which cannot afford the space, or if the ship is going extraordinary means in trying to save cost.

Even with a Type 056 corvette, you have one main radar that is an S or a C-band, followed by an X-band that serves as gunnery or for targeting anti-ship missiles within the ship's line of sight, along with auxiliary X-band radars that are used for ship navigation and closer range surface search.

The Type 054A is a ship, despite its low cost, is full of radars blooming out of its gills. If you go down the spectrum, you find it extremely comprehensive.

Type 382 -- S and C-band air search
Type 364 - C-band surface search
Type 344 - X-band gunnery
Type 366 - X-band antiship + OTH
4 x MR90 - X-band target tracking and engagement illumination
2 x Type 347G - X or K band CIWS radar
3 navigation radars - X-band