054/A FFG Thread II

[Tam]

Why would delaying a Frigate successor be a calculated risk?

Plus Frigates aren't supposed to be about risky and bold new designs.
That is incompatible with characteristics such as low-risk, low cost, reliability etc, which is what you want for a Frigate.

Modern frigates, particularly those in Europe, spearheaded the use of cutting edge AESA radars and stealthy designs on a warship. Although one might say all these ships should be light destroyers, but they have defined a new genre or concept to the frigate.

By doing this, they have raised the stakes among smaller ships. This means that if other smaller warships have to compete, they have to raise their designs to this new level. And this creates a chain reaction around the world.

They certainly have raised that goal post for the PLAN. That is why its likely the "conservative" design that is to be the 054B might have been skunked. It won't hold up against future frigate opposition. They look at Type 26, they look at FFG(X), they look at FREMM, and they look back at the 054B and think, ah that is not good. As it is even right now, the 054A is also behind its frigate competition.

So the PLAN goes back to the drawing boards. The 054B might be dead but they are still looking for a next generation future frigate to counter Type 26, FREMM and FFG(X).

We can see the US Navy is going back to proven and less-risky technologies for their next Frigate.

They are still going with a cutting edge radar though, and is looking at modern European frigate designs. The Europeans redefined what it means to be a modern frigate; the US is looking to buy a European frigate that they can build in the US and place their own equipment.

If there are risky and bold new technologies, they don't belong on a production line until they've been proven out on a few test ships.
Eg. IEPS, railguns, lasers, trimaran frigate hull designs.

This is true, however trimarans are not cutting edge.

 

[Bhurki]

So you make a 5,000 to 6,000 ton ship, slightly smaller than 052D, with more space allocated to carry helicopters and a hanger, not as much VLS as the 052D, or a sensor fit not as extravagant. Would still be using AESA but not as big. Assuming a ship with 32 U-VLS for HQ-9 and future ASW VLS fired YU-11 type, and 8 VLS for YJ-18, two large helicopters and hanger for both, this is kind of like a post 2020 age 051B. Despite the ship nearing the size of a 052D, the bill for it would be much less.

Thats basically a present gorshkov class ship(other than 2 heli).
I just see it as unlikely that higher-ups in chain of command of PLAN will agree to a completely new design with its new overhead costs for a ship that costs a quarter less and provides trimmed capabilities, unless there's enough problems with the existing 052d that demand some change to happen in form of a new iteration subclass like 052e.
That's where they could hedge against uncertainity by bearing cost of an entirely new line of heavy frigate( since 054a is a dead end in terms of further integration of newer subsystems).
But if nothing is chronically wrong with 052d, then the production run may extend quite a bit as its deep magazine of 64vls( compared to frigates) provides ample oppurtunity for future weapons while the platform itself can be upgraded with better electronic systems in future.
Also, making 2-3 ships a year in dalian and jiangnan each seems not to bear any weight on their pockets at current.

 

[Tam]

Thats basically a present gorshkov class ship(other than 2 heli).
I just see it as unlikely that higher-ups in chain of command of PLAN will agree to a completely new design with its new overhead costs for a ship that costs a quarter less and provides trimmed capabilities, unless there's enough problems with the existing 052d that demand some change to happen in form of a new iteration subclass like 052e.
That's where they could hedge against uncertainity by bearing cost of an entirely new line of heavy frigate( since 054a is a dead end in terms of further integration of newer subsystems).
But if nothing is chronically wrong with 052d, then the production run may extend quite a bit as its deep magazine of 64vls( compared to frigates) provides ample oppurtunity for future weapons while the platform itself can be upgraded with better electronic systems in future.
Also, making 2-3 ships a year in dalian and jiangnan each seems not to bear any weight on their pockets at current.

Not sure how a completely new design would have higher overhead costs, when it can be designed with maintenance and lower cost of operation in mind along with greater automation. You can have ships as large as the 052D but use less crewmen. The term "frigate" may not reflect the size and displacement of the ship itself, but that of its purchasing cost, level of armament and the size of the crew it holds.

Gorshkov would be a 052 by Chinese methodology, as that ship has two gas turbines and two diesels. So will the Admiral Grigorovich class, or that might actually be closer to a 052B than a 054A.

What's wrong with the 052D could be its cost picture. It might a ship that is still expensive enough that it cuts into the budget of building more 055s. Moving the 052D roles into that of a cheaper, lighter, support destroyer or heavy frigate, maybe more capable than the 054A but maybe not as good as the 052D except for having two helicopters, can leave you with more budget allowance to make more 055.

In other words, I want to build as much 055 as I can, and put more of my eggs on that ship. I don't want a ship that competes with it budget wise, I also want another ship that can be as cheap as possible so I can build more 055 but this second ship remains capable and defensible enough and still able to support the 055.

 

[Bhurki]

Not sure how a completely new design would have higher overhead costs, when it can be designed with maintenance and lower cost of operation in mind along with greater automation.

Even though the resultant of a newer optimized frigate maybe lower maintenance, upgrade costs, Getting there would require maintenance and operating crew to be trained in entirely new SOPs, production shipyards to learn new tech.
Also midlife upgrades would require more exclusive systems. Basically, two ship lines, of comparable capability, of x number of ships will always have more overhead costs per unit compared one ship line with 2x number of ships.

In other words, I want to build as much 055 as I can, and put more of my eggs on that ship. I don't want a ship that competes with it budget wise, I also want another ship that can be as cheap as possible so I can build more 055 but this second ship remains capable and defensible enough and still able to support the 055.

I understand freeing up weight on one side Orbat to increase freedom of budget on the other. However, current production rate of 4x 052d, 2x 055 per annum doesn't seem hard to maintain. Adding an extra line would cut into these numbers.
052d is equipped(strictly in terms of electronics) to the tune of a heavy frigate like Akizuki instead of a ship of the line like type 45, AB class, So I think they already might have made a certain bit of sacrifice to make this line more affordable and sustain it longer at lower costs.

 

[Tam]

Even though the resultant of a newer optimized frigate maybe lower maintenance, upgrade costs, Getting there would require maintenance and operating crew to be trained in entirely new SOPs, production shipyards to learn new tech.
Also midlife upgrades would require more exclusive systems. Basically, two ship lines, of comparable capability, of x number of ships will always have more overhead costs per unit compared one ship line with 2x number of ships.

I don't know to what extent new SOP is needed, when you can still use the same QD280 gas turbines and 20V MTU engines.

Right now, you are already forced to train on two different SOP for 052D and 054A, with 055 closer to 052D, but still many things different. Another problem is the wide range of radar systems on board from the 054A to the 052D and to the 055.

Future Frigate should rely on the proven power trains of QD280 and 20V MTU engines, which gives it greater commonality with the 052D, as opposed to the SMT Pielstik engines of the 054A. Our electronics and radar kit should be derived with great commonality with the 055. Standardization across the board with U-VLS and weapons compatible with it, e,g. HQ-9, YJ-18, and so on, instead of having a different set caused by AJK-16 VLS using HQ-16, YU-8, and slant fired YJ-83. The Future Frigate or Light Destroyer is much more like a mini scaled down 055 based on the 052.

I understand freeing up weight on one side Orbat to increase freedom of budget on the other. However, current production rate of 4x 052d, 2x 055 per annum doesn't seem hard to maintain. Adding an extra line would cut into these numbers.
052d is equipped(strictly in terms of electronics) to the tune of a heavy frigate like Akizuki instead of a ship of the line like type 45, AB class, So I think they already might have made a certain bit of sacrifice to make this line more affordable and sustain it longer at lower costs.

What makes you think this should be built in Jiangnan and Dalian? I am thinking of a ship that can be built in Hudong Zhonghua and Guandong Huangpu.

052D is not equipped to the tune of a heavy frigate like Akizuki. The size of Type 346A panels is bigger than SPY-1D and is about the size of SPY-6 of the Flight III Burke, probably about 4.3 meters across. The size and weight of these panels makes it necessary to put them lower in a deckhouse than above the bridge. What I am proposing is much more like the Akizuki. 052D also has a high redundancy with its radar sets, because in addition to the Type 346A, it has four other radar sets, not counting navigation radars. You have Type 364 surface search radar for spotting sea skimmers; Type 366 for antiship engagement, including over the horizon, cooperative and passive engagement capability; Type 344 for gun fire control; Type 517M or the new VHF array.

I like to see all those radars chopped off the ship and consolidated into fewer radars. Delete the VHF array, we will rely on sensor sharing via CEC with existing 052D and 055. Type 364, 366 and 344 can be combined into a single four faced X-band array like on the Type 055, or the same set as on the Type 055. The use of a smaller AESA search radar that uses Gallium Nitride, can provide you with a much more compact set that you can set on an integrated mast from a higher search position that can scan an extended search horizon, while able to provide near the performance of the much larger Type 346A set.

The whole ship is simplified. Less extra radars, means less power consumption, needs less maintenance crews on each of them. These old mechanical radars need to be mechanically overhauled time to time, and the use of AESA fixes that. You only need to replace broken modules from the inside, and recalibrate the array electronically. With fewer radar sets, you need less cables, less back end electronic cabinets, you have less workstations and need less crews to man them. You are now down to only two sets of radars to man and maintain, instead of five on the 052D and five on the 054A, with two radar sets unique to the 052D and two radar sets that are unique to the 054A:

Type 346A on the Type 052D
Type 364 both shared on the 052D and 054A
Type 366 both shared on the 052D and 054A
Type 344 both shared on the 052D and 054A
Type 382 on the 054A
Type 345? (MR90 missile directors) on the 054A.
Type 517M (VHF array) on the 052D
New VHF array on the 052DL

That's like eight different radars to maintain and train people on. This is what all the technicians in the destroyer flotillas have to deal with currently.

My proposed frigate or light destroyer goes like this.

Mini Type 346X, uses parts from the 052D and 055.
Fixed set X-band AESA from the 055.

That's only two sets and you're sharing the expertise for manning and maintaining with the 055. Furthermore, the replacement for the 052D can use an upscaled Type 346 and repeat using the same X-band radar. So all three classes of ships from the future frigate, the 052D replacement and the 055 all share the same radars, the same commonality of manning and maintenance. Along with the commonality, the mass production into making these components in large volume also drives down the costs of the radars further, making all three ships even more affordable.

 

[Tam]

Separate story this time.

Probable signs of the first Type 054A/P for Pakistan along with Type 056A.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

 

[Bhurki]

052D is not equipped to the tune of a heavy frigate like Akizuki. The size of Type 346A panels is bigger than SPY-1D and is about the size of SPY-6 of the Flight III Burke, probably about 4.3 meters across. The size and weight of these panels makes it necessary to put them lower in a deckhouse than above the bridge. What I am proposing is much more like the Akizuki. 052D also has a high redundancy with its radar sets, because in addition to the Type 346A, it has four other radar sets, not counting navigation radars. You have Type 364 surface search radar for spotting sea skimmers; Type 366 for antiship engagement, including over the horizon, cooperative and passive engagement capability; Type 344 for gun fire control; Type 517M or the new VHF array.

I actually mistyped Akizuki while thinking about its successor, the GaN aesa equipped Asahi class.
Chinese radars in general are considered less capable than western systems of same generation, hence my assumption.
I agree with you on overlapping functions of different radar systems on 052d, but that may be entirely incidental and there may be case of achieving redundancy to assure standard operation, stemming from lack of confidence in certain indigenous subsystems.
For eg. Type 344,364,366 can easily be married into a single FCS.(345 seems obsolete)
517 seems like a hedge to 346a deficiency.
In any case atleast 3 systems would be necessary-Large volume scan, multi function medium and a short range overlap.
Anyways, i expect the earliest implementation of any of these MF standalone radar systems to be in the successor to 052d rather than any other ship.

 

[Tam]

I actually mistyped Akizuki while thinking about its successor, the GaN aesa equipped Asahi class.
Chinese radars in general are considered less capable than western systems of same generation, hence my assumption.
I agree with you on overlapping functions of different radar systems on 052d, but that may be entirely incidental and there may be case of achieving redundancy to assure standard operation, stemming from lack of confidence in certain indigenous subsystems.

This has been the Russian philosophy and the Chinese inherited it of such. Another issue is that the systems are mixed. Type 364 is indigenous, Type 366 is based on a Russian design, which is Mineral ME radar also known as Bandstand, and Type 344 is based on an Italian French design that is related to the Thales STIR.

Type 366 has OTH capabilities, using the principle of duct propagation. While this is used mainly to target enemy ships beyond the horizon, the Chinese version has the capability to spot incoming sea skimmers beyond the horizon, although OTH isn't that accurate when it comes to range. This system also uses passive ESM to target ships over the horizon.

Thales STIR is a multifunction fire control radar. It is capable of fire control for guns, for antiship missiles, and can even serve to guide missiles such as Standard and ESSM. The numbers of what it can engage is probably limited though, because of its mechanical, conical scan nature. The Type 344 doesn't guide missiles, but it is used as the standard gunnery radar for the PLAN. However, there is a version that also has anti-ship missile capability, although I think this is just changes in the combat data system, and this is used on the Type 056 corvette family and on the Type 051B refit.

So while the Type 344 and 366 can both guide anti ship missiles, the 366 has OTH targeting.

For eg. Type 344,364,366 can easily be married into a single FCS.(345 seems obsolete)
517 seems like a hedge to 346a deficiency.

517 is intended for VLO targets. Metric wave can also be used potentially for OTH backscatter and surface wave propagation.

In any case atleast 3 systems would be necessary-Large volume scan, multi function medium and a short range overlap.
Anyways, i expect the earliest implementation of any of these MF standalone radar systems to be in the successor to 052d rather than any other ship.

Type 055 has decided that VHF volume scan is no longer necessary, despite being a higher end ship than the 052D. Ironically the 052D new version features an improve VHF radar. This thing is a surprise for me.

So why improve it on the 052D and omit it on the 055? It is very likely the 055's Type 346B is hugely powerful and sensitive enough that it makes the VHF array redundant. Other clues to the array's power is the huge IFF arrays that are much bigger than the 052D's. The IFF arrays are intended to range and interrogate a much greater number of targets across the scanned space. Another is the prodigous 30MW electric power of the 055, which is double of the Flight III Burke.

However, this radar cannot be fitted on the 052D at the moment without requiring some redesign and changes on the ship itself to accommodate the greater power demands of the 346B So the Type 052DL (or DG whatever you prefer) still uses the Type 346A and improves on the search capability using the improved VHF array.

The future 052X which maybe 052E, can go with some internal redesign that would beef up its internal power and cooling systems to handle the Type 346B radars, and eliminate the VHF array. In so doing, you can utilize the space either to increase the number of VLS --- adding 16 more pushes it to 80 --- or perhaps add a second hanger. Either that, or the 052E can use a smaller size of Type 346B, which may not give it the range of the 055 but still able to replace the VHF array.

The frigate never bothered with the VHF array so it is not tasked to detect VLO objects at long range. Frigates are often a compromise by selectively prioritizing certain roles and sacrificing others. In the Chinese Future Frigate, lets take a much smaller version of the Type 346B. The smaller size means it has less power than the full size Type 346B, and while lacking its range and breadth, the baby Type 346B based radar will still significantly outperform the older Type 382 Top Plate radar on the 054A and can approach the performance of the older Type 346 and 346A radars. Against VLO threats, the ship can rely on CEC for sensor access to the 052D and the 055.

The Type 055 gifted the PLAN by providing a MF FCS with the X-band AESA residing on its mast. This radar or variants of it, can be PLAN's next wave of FCS, replacing all the mentioned old school radars in future ships as a standard feature.

So in this setup, the Type 346B has evolved to three variants, the full size one for the 055, a smaller but still large version for the 052E, and a downscaled mini version for the frigate. The new X-band radar will be used on all three ships without any changes on all three. This greatly rationalizes the electronic setup for the PLAN warships, so even with the higher upfront costs of the AESA arrays, this will be offset with much lower maintenance costs across the board, achieve a high logistical availability --- modules can be shared with all three ships --- while a high production volume of the components will eventually reduce the front price of the arrays.

 

[Bhurki]

Type 055 has decided that VHF volume scan is no longer necessary, despite being a higher end ship than the 052D

My idea was more to use a low power volume scan radar to be working at all times, and transferring control to power hungry main unit like 346x only for combat operation.

Ironically the 052D new version features an improve VHF radar. This thing is a surprise for me.

and certainly a question on 346A capability.

So why improve it on the 052D and omit it on the 055? It is very likely the 055's Type 346B is hugely powerful and sensitive enough that it makes the VHF array redundant.

I'd read earlier 346B is GaN based. That can explain the increased energy requirement.

However, this radar cannot be fitted on the 052D at the moment without requiring some redesign and changes on the ship itself to accommodate the greater power demands of the 346B

Its obvious if a derivation of 346B is ported over to 052d, then the size of arrays will be smaller than original. How much electrical output does 052d have as of now? It would make sense to replace the legacy systems in the mid life upgrade with single integrated system like on 055.

 

[Tam]

My idea was more to use a low power volume scan radar to be working at all times, and transferring control to power hungry main unit like 346x only for combat operation.

Even the largest radars don't necessarily work in full power all the time. You can set even a GaN powered Type 346B or any radar at low power. The idea of using AESA is that it can generate an LPI (Low Probability of Intercept) signal, which means it will have a hard time getting picked up by someone's ESM, and if it does, it can be confused and filtered out as static or noise. Chinese calling it LPIR or Low Probabiliy of Intercept Radar. The large radar works in LPI mode, then go into full power in combat.

and certainly a question on 346A capability.

The longer the wave length is from the X-band, the more visible the stealth object is to radar. Many stealth fighters are optimized for the X-band. However, some bombers like B-2 and F-117 are optimized against S-band search radar. So you need another longer wavelength radar to counter it. In European ships, like the Type 45 or Sachsen class, they use SMART-L to reach further than the S-band and into LO. Once the target is detected, they queue the S-band to track it (Sachsen uses X-band).

In terms of volume reach and LO acquisition
VHF > UHF > L-band > S-band > C-band > X-band

In terms of tracking fidelity and quality
X-band > C-band > S-band > L-band > UHF > VHF

The choice of the frequency is a compromise. No band is a silver bullet. S-band is usually the common compromise but can be supplemented by a longer wave radar to increase volume search and by a shorter length radar for fire control.

The elegant solution to the S-band compromise is to add additional radars on both ends. In the case of the Type 055, it cancels out the long end part to rely on pure brute force.

I'd read earlier 346B is GaN based. That can explain the increased energy requirement.

Its obvious if a derivation of 346B is ported over to 052d, then the size of arrays will be smaller than original. How much electrical output does 052d have as of now? It would make sense to replace the legacy systems in the mid life upgrade with single integrated system like on 055.

Exactly what I am saying.

This is the part where the ship designers have to work the details, draw out the infrastructure and work out the math. I don't know what is the generator power on the 052D and the number of generators and its possible the power may also vary batch to batch.