054/A FFG Thread II

[Tam]

Now that the 054a line is winding up.. Isn't it strange to have no info about the 054b. Is it that there will be a gap in frigate production since no design has been finalised yet, or has PLAN achieved the number of frigates it requires for the time being?

The rumor or "leak" suggests that the 054B is getting a design revision from a hybrid IPS to a full IPS.

I also think they are not in a hurry, with all the frigates and corvettes made. Another note is that older destroyers are getting "demoted" to the 054A level as they are MLU'ed to about the same level --- the Sovs, and maybe the 052B in the near future in addition to the already done 051B. At the same time the original 054s appears to be getting their MLU, and raised to the 054A level. So in addition to the 30 Type 054As, you also have a potential another nine ships that are "054A like" in their AAW defense level.

Another thing I suspect is that the PLAN is also having manning issues. Not enough trained bodies to fill the ships. Still one 'ghost ship' --- brand new 052D in Dalian ready to go and has been sitting there for a while. They will have to prioritize manning all those destroyers that are in the building and fitting queues now, on top of the carriers and the 071s. The 056 production may also soon come to an end, and that can help.

 

[Blitzo]

The rumor or "leak" suggests that the 054B is getting a design revision from a hybrid IPS to a full IPS.

I also think they are not in a hurry, with all the frigates and corvettes made. Another note is that older destroyers are getting "demoted" to the 054A level as they are MLU'ed to about the same level --- the Sovs, and maybe the 052B in the near future in addition to the already done 051B. At the same time the original 054s appears to be getting their MLU, and raised to the 054A level. So in addition to the 30 Type 054As, you also have a potential another nine ships that are "054A like" in their AAW defense level.

Another thing I suspect is that the PLAN is also having manning issues. Not enough trained bodies to fill the ships. Still one 'ghost ship' --- brand new 052D in Dalian ready to go and has been sitting there for a while. They will have to prioritize manning all those destroyers that are in the building and fitting queues now, on top of the carriers and the 071s. The 056 production may also soon come to an end, and that can help.

tbh I'm not convinced the 052D at DL there is related to any problems with personnel availability so much as DL the shipyard and possibly the unit that will be receiving that particular 052D as hmmvw wrote here

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[Lethe]

Now that the 054a line is winding up.. Isn't it strange to have no info about the 054b. Is it that there will be a gap in frigate production since no design has been finalised yet, or has PLAN achieved the number of frigates it requires for the time being?

I expect you'll find a future frigate program in the budgetary space that opens up as the current 052D and/or 055 production runs wrap up around 2023/24.

 

[Bhurki]

I expect you'll find a future frigate program in the budgetary space that opens up as the current 052D and/or 055 production runs wrap up around 2023/24.

I don't think 052d or 055 production will wrap up anytime for the decade or so...
They need power projector capital ships to control SLOC all over the pacific, indian ocean and what not.. Although increase in defence spending may free up space for additional projects, my question is, is there a need?

 

[Lethe]

I don't think 052d or 055 production will wrap up anytime for the decade or so...
They need power projector capital ships to control SLOC all over the pacific, indian ocean and what not.. Although increase in defence spending may free up space for additional projects, my question is, is there a need?

I wrote a series of posts a few months ago conveying my perspective on the question of more frigates. I do think that China needs at least as many affordable blue water frigates as it has destroyers, primarily for ASW purposes. You could be right about ongoing 052X and 055X production, but in an alternative scenario 052D production could end with the 26th unit around 2024 and its budgetary allocation switched to a future frigate program, while 055/A production continues.

I don't think it is realistic to expect the budget to expand to simply accommodate more surface combatant projects constructing units at a faster rate. The budget will be stretched enough as is with aircraft carrier and aircraft programs, nuclear submarines, LHD programs, presumptive helo and UAV acquisition spree, etc. For another surface combatant program to enter the picture, I expect something from the same category will have to drop out. Of course the 056 program is apparently coming to a close even now, but I doubt that alone would free up enough funds for a future frigate...

 

[Biscuits]

Maybe they’re waiting on the rail gun. The 054As have always been the LCS of the Chinese fleet.

A ship that does it’s work reasonably close to the coastline would benefit a lot from a railgun. Perhaps, the entire frigate can be redesigned with a Zumwalt style hull. That would be an extremely frightening littoral combatant.

 

[Tam]

Maybe they’re waiting on the rail gun. The 054As have always been the LCS of the Chinese fleet.

A ship that does it’s work reasonably close to the coastline would benefit a lot from a railgun. Perhaps, the entire frigate can be redesigned with a Zumwalt style hull. That would be an extremely frightening littoral combatant.

I tend to think the Type 054A is more like the Oliver Hazard Perry frigates of the Chinese Navy. There are parallels between the OHP and the 054A, ranging from a high production number, tonnage, armament, size, mission types and so on. The LCS is an improper replacement of the OHP, so now the US is scrambling with the FFG(X), which is about ten years late.

I don't think China needs a monitor.

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[Biscuits]

I tend to think the Type 054A is more like the Oliver Hazard Perry frigates of the Chinese Navy. There are parallels between the OHP and the 054A, ranging from a high production number, tonnage, armament, size, mission types and so on. The LCS is an improper replacement of the OHP, so now the US is scrambling with the FFG(X), which is about ten years late.

I don't think China needs a monitor.

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A stealth design would be more practical on a small ship like a frigate. It’s impossible to hide a ship through stealth, but a frigate with a stealth hull and advanced ECM may be able to pass as a very small fishing boat and escape attention... especially if many civilian fishing boats are in the area to begin with.

Equipped with a railgun, it would have overwhelming firepower against any initial attackers.

It’s not too hard to imagine that some country will send warships to harass Chinese fishermen. The fact that some fishing boats might not be fishing boats but railgun armed frigates would be an immense deterrent against such behavior.

Elsewhere, the stealth frigates can slip into the littorals of hostile countries and lay down stealth fire support from outside defense range, perhaps to cover for evacuation missions. Like a Zumwalt but stealthier and more affordable, and with actual fangs.

 

[Bhurki]

The main issue is that it doesnt seem there is enough urgency around finalizing the design for 054b and putting it into production. One may assume its due to impending technologies required for a high performance stealth frigate not being mature enough, or just that PLAN is more comfortable offloading some of the duties of a multi role area control ship to the 052d fleet as the numbers become more accessible and are more versatile as compared to 054a.
Personally i'm hopeful that atleast the same number of 054b are put into service as 054a with characterstics like stealth equivalent to LCS (excluding puny armament loadouts in LCS class ofcourse). This should give them a great tool for controlling high intensity short radii combat theaters.
I'm sure professionals here are more informed about the issue and hope they would clear if its actually going to be put into production any time soon.

 

[Tam]

A stealth design would be more practical on a small ship like a frigate. It’s impossible to hide a ship through stealth, but a frigate with a stealth hull and advanced ECM may be able to pass as a very small fishing boat and escape attention... especially if many civilian fishing boats are in the area to begin with.

Equipped with a railgun, it would have overwhelming firepower against any initial attackers.

It’s not too hard to imagine that some country will send warships to harass Chinese fishermen. The fact that some fishing boats might not be fishing boats but railgun armed frigates would be an immense deterrent against such behavior.

Elsewhere, the stealth frigates can slip into the littorals of hostile countries and lay down stealth fire support from outside defense range, perhaps to cover for evacuation missions. Like a Zumwalt but stealthier and more affordable, and with actual fangs.

But this seems to be what the Type 056 corvette is meant to do, besides being ASW. Its design is meant to be low and stealthy. I would think that most modern OPVs, corvettes and light frigates being made now around the world, all feature stealthy characteristics.

Not sure about the appropriateness of a railgun in this situation. I would think rate of fire would be more important in order to deal with low flying aircraft, as long as the caliber isn't too low. Chances of meeting another warship in the littorals, is that its another of those modern small fast stealthy warships. Trying to use a railgun in this situation amounts to taking a rifle and trying to shoot a fly with it. There is also the question whether this small stealth frigate can have the sensors that would do justice to a railgun. The flight velocity of the railgun shell might also be so flat, the range would have to be considerable before it would start bending down, and you have to take consideration of the earth curvature. These flat flight arcs would make it difficult for surface bombardment where you want to fire shells in ballistic arcs.