054/A FFG Thread II

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I applaud your attempt to move the goal posts YET AGAIN and try to get the conversation lost in the weeds. The subject at hand isn't quality of tracks vs quantity of tracks, but your original quip that humans wouldn't have enough time to intervene on all targets because they have less than "30 seconds" to do so (where did you get that particular number BTW?? ROFLMAO). The point is also that you completely failed to appreciate the main reason that Aegis was even developed in the first place, which was in fact to be able to remove humans from the equation altogether and automate the entire business of finding, tracking, prioritizing and attacking masses of incoming targets. And yes, this includes algorithms on determining what is clutter and removing them from the equation.

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Sigh. The original reason why Aegis was made is to serve as a protective shield against Soviet bomber and missile attacks.
there's something I want to ask ... how do I put it ... I follow (LOL among so many other things) a blogger who bitches about the USN fielding untested stuff

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etc., it's
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so the question, which sounds silly, is how many threats would
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REALLY take down?

the Pentagon's PR Department would of course answer 'as many as there're missiles in VLSs'

LOL I'm not in any Conspiracy, but was
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ever shown to work against for example DOZEN of
BQM-74E Aerial Target
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COMING AT ONCE?
 
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Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
That's actually questionable, because radar seekers have antennas that are so small, and size matters with radio antennas for picking up signals over distance.

Another thing is that the missiles can be potentially confused if you have multiple X-band CWI sources in the battle space, including friendlies emitting their own illumination.

Furthermore, ESSM and SM-2 are fired from a VLS. That means their seekers are inert at launch and the missile has to be directed towards the target after launch by a link. What you are describing if the missile has to ride all the way from its launch point to the target works only if the missile is on an external arm launcher, which pivots and elevates the missile to the direction of the target. The missile would have to lock before launch.

And once again, if you light up a target with CWI from a distant range, lets say 150km, their RWRs would detect it and the countermeasures would be enacted. One of those countermeasures could be a HARM missile towards you, or a straight up ASM fired because your CWI betrayed your location.

Any missile fired off from a VLS has to be data linked so it can be controlled and turned around.

Shows you don't even read things properly. I am referring to SARH principle in general, such as those in aircraft, land based SAM units, and other naval fire control units, e..g. Thales STIR. You should know that Murasame and Takanami doesn't use SPG-62 and neither does the Perries. Very likely MR90 Orekh works the same way.
More inane verbal judo. The SPG-62 has an advertised range of 200,000 yards, but this is how far IT can reach, not how far SARH missiles can pick up its radiation. Since the missiles only start riding the beam in the last few seconds of the engagement, they are already very close to the target and should easily be able to pick up the emissions that the SPG-62 is bouncing off the target. Not only that, the SPG-62 does not even have to radiate anything at all until the final few seconds of engagement, making your paranoia about early detection totally irrelevant.

Second, rail launchers have nothing to do with anything. Once again you betray your complete lack of understanding of missile guidance. SARH missiles NEVER have to "lock before launch". They are invariably guided prior to impact by primary radars (like the SPY-1D) or by dedicated FCRs (like the Orekh); only in the final seconds of the engagement do they actually start homing in on radiated illumination signals. So whether they launch via rail or launch via VLS, it doesn't matter.

Now you contradict your own point. You cannot do what you are describing above if the missile will beam ride from its launch to the target. It does not take a few seconds for a missile to reach its target; it takes many seconds. Mach 3 being a kilometer per second, it would take a hundred seconds to reach 100km.
Were you saying something about not reading things properly? Nobody said anything about riding a beam from launch to target. Please link and quote where you think I said that. Be sure to quote literally and not sneakily try to paraphrase what I said. I did not claim that SPG-62 does that, nor did I claim that Orekh does that. What I did claim was that Orekh is responsible for guiding the missile from launch to target. When I say "riding a beam" I'm talking about the final seconds of the engagement where there is an illumination signal bouncing off the target, which is what the missile "rides" on its way in. Neither the SPG-62 nor the Orekh actually illuminates the target until the final moments so there is no "riding a beam from launch to target".

You got that correct. Do note that an Orekh can serve a missile from launch to target directly if the missile is on an arm launcher (Sov, 052B) that can point the missile to the target. Witin 40km that is doable. But if it is from a VLS (054A, Shtil VLS), the missile will have to be data linked and it can used to extend the range further.
No, this is just wrong. Again, you don't ever need to point the ESSM, SM-2, or HHQ-16 at a target for them to lock on to prior to launch. The SARH missile is almost invariably data linked on launch and only begins to home in on a signal at the very end of its flight. Data links do not "extend the range" when they are actually the norm of operation. You are obviously mistaking SARH with IR-homing missiles like RAM and HHQ-10 which DO (typically) acquire the target prior to launch.

That does not sound right since any AESA or phase array can digitally form separately beams, each of them can attend to a separate missile.

And no, a missile can tell when things are happening in electronic speeds, because the CW is interrupted, and there is still a gap between the first signal and the second, and that creates a data gap and a potential error or inaccuracy.

Furthermore, this isn't as accurate as pure CW, because pure CW is infinite update on range, velocity and heading measurement. The time gaps as the missile serves one missile after another is "lag".

So no, the way you describe it is not as accurate as pure CWI.

You don't really need to terminal illuminate for every missile when all you need to do is illuminate for the one that does, like I said, just keep the rest riding on a datalink until they are close enough to the target.
You forget that many ESAs are quite small compared to the giant panels seen on the 052Ds and Arleigh Burkes. Especially mast-top radars like APAR, and probably EMPAR and Sampson. I have already mentioned that if you have a large enough panel with plenty of T/R modules to spare while allowing other functions to proceed with enough bandwidth, then ICWI becomes unnecessary, at least until such time that combat damage knocks out a large enough portion of your panel, whereupon ICWI would in fact become necessary again.

And no, you don't even nearly have the expertise to make judgments on whether a missile can or cannot tell when things are happening in electronic speeds. The fact is that ICWI exists and it works regardless of what any random internet professor claims.

Lol you must have made that up completely did you?
Oh, I made it up, like you make things up? No, son. I don't need to make it up. I replaced your failed google search for ICWI with one that is actually useful, and all you need to do is SCROLL and LEARN. There are MULTIPLE hits for ICWI that you can go on pretending that you didn't read, if you like. :rolleyes:

Please. As if these activities are internet worthy.
Thank you for confirming that you have no "proper textbooks" to speak of and have been bullshitting this entire time.

MRDA also intends to update earlier Exocets with the new radar update.
Please provide evidence that MBDA actually intends to do this, via a link.

Sigh. The original reason why Aegis was made is to serve as a protective shield against Soviet bomber and missile attacks.
Hahahahaha like you somehow get to be the one to sigh. Yes, Aegis WAS designed to serve as a shield against Soviet bomber and missile attacks. MASSED saturation Soviet bomber and missile attacks where it would become impossible for humans to make individual decisions on each target. That you continue to deny this blatantly obvious fact is another example of your lack of intellectual honesty during this conversation.
 
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... Yes, Aegis WAS designed to serve as a shield against Soviet bomber and missile attacks. MASSED saturation Soviet bomber and missile attacks where it would become impossible for humans to make individual decisions on each target. ...
now I took a look, will retype what Miller & Miller "Modern Naval Combat" had to say in 1986 edition, at p. 60:

"Possibly the most advanced surface-to-air weapon system in use today is the US Navy's Aegis system, of which a major element is the SPY-1 multi-function array radar. The phase-scanned arrays, each measuring ... [skipping] .. are mounted in pairs in ... [skipping] ... to give all-around coverage, and each array has 4,100 discrete elements controlled by YUK-1 digital computers to produce and steer multiple radar beams for target search, detection and tracking. The SPY-1 also tracks its own ship's missiles and provides target designation data for the target illumination radars, of which there are four on each ship to direct Standard active-homing missiles.

In operation the three-dimensional SPY-1 continually searches with a single horizontal beam out to 45nm for pop-up targets, while covering many times per minute a hemisphere with a radius of 175nm. When a target is detected the radar control computer can allocate within one second more beams to the target, and a smooth target track is obtained in less time than it takes a mechanical scanning radar antenna to complete one revolution."

and so on and so forth
 
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Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
I just love how you sandwiched 056 right in between 052D and 055 as if to insinuate that they are the same caliber of CMS. See, it's this kind of stupid intellectually dishonest crap that makes debating with you tedious.


I've LONG noticed how much of your conversation and replies are pseudo-technical and gleaned straight from Wikipedia.

A lot better than yours which are gleaned from the marketing brochures of defense companies where you practically invented much of the things to connect the dots with.

It's not my claim. And it's certainly not a stretch when ATECS is present on much larger ships tasked with more complicated missions than what the 056 is even remotely capable of.

It is not and it currently doesn't handle a lot of missiles. The key is 'currently'. We are talking about current capabilities.

And the HHQ-10 makes the 056's CMS more complicated than ATECS? This is hairbrained to the point of utter inanity.

Supporting radar/EOS directing of a missile launcher, support for infrared and passive radar seekers is currently not on ATECS. If you do so, you can support RAM.

Sorry, but I don't have to show you shit. You made the inane claim, you back up the inane claim. Again, claiming that there are green-skinned Martians on the far side of the Moon and then demanding that I prove you wrong is stupid.

Lol, you really need to show why the Japanese should deviate from American practices which they are constantly exposed to.

Again, who died and made YOU a naval ship designer? How did you in your expert opinion determine what is a "short arc" vs what is not? Who allowed you to make the statement "I would say EW being right next to the search radar, that would amount to sufficient interference". ROFLMAO! The fact is, you literally don't know anything but you are trying so hard to sound like you. You had no idea what blanking was but are still now trying to make up for it by making up pseudo-technical nonsense that you can't back up.

If the radar arcs over to the EW, yeah, that means significant interference. Even if the interference is filtered out, it means reduced sensitivity for both the radar and the EW. You may have to accept the db loss there, run them separately or let the radar blank out when it swings towards the EW.

The fact that the Akizuki did not continue this design from the Takanami and Murasame, and no one else practically does, should tell that the Takanami-Murasame radar layout design is a failure and for that matter why OPS-24 was discontinued even for an advanced AESA radar.

So you have attached a photo of a ICWI caption. Was this photo supposed to mean something? Was that somehow supposed to imply that you knew what ICWI was? Because you clearly didn't. What this photo represents is your lack of an adequate rational response to me showcasing your poor internet search skills in my previous post. Since you had nothing to respond with, you post up this graphic, like that somehow explains everything. LOL

You still have absolutely no idea what ICWI really means, and you totally made up a time sharing scheme that is impractical and nonsensical.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
More inane verbal judo. The SPG-62 has an advertised range of 200,000 yards, but this is how far IT can reach, not how far SARH missiles can pick up its radiation. Since the missiles only start riding the beam in the last few seconds of the engagement, they are already very close to the target and should easily be able to pick up the emissions that the SPG-62 is bouncing off the target. Not only that, the SPG-62 does not even have to radiate anything at all until the final few seconds of engagement, making your paranoia about early detection totally irrelevant.

Oh? Now you are contradicting what you are saying before that the missile rides the bean from launch to target.

And that's what I was saying all along, the missiles are mid phase guided via datalink until they are close to the target which is when the SPG-62 lights the target up.

Second, rail launchers have nothing to do with anything. Once again you betray your complete lack of understanding of missile guidance. SARH missiles NEVER have to "lock before launch". They are invariably guided prior to impact by primary radars (like the SPY-1D) or by dedicated FCRs (like the Orekh); only in the final seconds of the engagement do they actually start homing in on radiated illumination signals. So whether they launch via rail or launch via VLS, it doesn't matter


Now you are trying to correct yourself here. I was the one who never said that. By implying that missiles ride the beam from launch to target, you imply that.

Even riding the beam gives the wrong idea, since it means the missile follows the same slant directional path of the beam. Using SARH, you can guide the missile to attack the target at a different aspect, particularly when some aircraft designs are made to reduce reflections back at the same direction of the emitter.

No, this is just wrong. Again, you don't ever need to point the ESSM, SM-2, or HHQ-16 at a target for them to lock on to prior to launch. The SARH missile is almost invariably data linked on launch and only begins to home in on a signal at the very end of its flight. Data links do not "extend the range" when they are actually the norm of operation. You are obviously mistaking SARH with IR-homing missiles like RAM and HHQ-10 which DO (typically) acquire the target prior to launch


You literally do not read or listen what people are saying, then twist them around to have a different meaning, while twisting your own to have a different meaning later on.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
More inane verbal judo.

Lowered reading comprehension perhaps.

You forget that many ESAs are quite small compared to the giant panels seen on the 052Ds and Arleigh Burkes. Especially mast-top radars like APAR, and probably EMPAR and Sampson. I have already mentioned that if you have a large enough panel with plenty of T/R modules to spare while allowing other functions to proceed with enough bandwidth, then ICWI becomes unnecessary, at least until such time that combat damage knocks out a large enough portion of your panel, whereupon ICWI would in fact become necessary again.

The size of the panels have a lot to do also with the size of the elements. An element for X-band would be much smaller than for an S-band, with L-band elements even bigger, and UHF-VHF elements are huge. Ku band elements are even smaller than X-band. Each element is sized consistent to the bandwidth.

Thus small ESAs are X or Ku-band and when you have this, these are primarily for gun and missile fire control functions, and for surface sea navigation.

Each APAR face alone has 3424 (?) elements, and that's a lot of elements in four faces. That is more way more than enough and still do track and scanning. If you have more engagement targets, you do less scan and track for targets and leave search and track to the other radars.

And no, you don't even nearly have the expertise to make judgments on whether a missile can or cannot tell when things are happening in electronic speeds. The fact is that ICWI exists and it works regardless of what any random internet professor claims.

And yet it is quite clear you are attempting to do so without.

Oh, I made it up, like you make things up? No, son. I don't need to make it up. I replaced your failed google search for ICWI with one that is actually useful, and all you need to do is SCROLL and LEARN. There are MULTIPLE hits for ICWI that you can go on pretending that you didn't read, if you like. :rolleyes:

You posted nothing useful. Furthermore your explanation is a wash.

I will leave you with this. Its a paper written in 1976.

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And here is one more for APAR.

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Here you go, ESSM and SM-2 have a datalink, and they don't beam ride.

Also says both Active and Semi Active guidance with ICWI. With active guidance you don't need to illuminate the target, which means ICWI is used for tracking. That sounds like any pulsed radar.

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Never mentions ICWI at all, but refers to a very high update track capability which is what you would expect from CWI tracking, FMCW, or interrupted CWI, or a PRF update so high it can look like a CWI.

You want a textbook? You can find them in any library, especially college ones, or download some basic ones like this.

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Go to Page 448. It talks about CW (Continuous Wave), FMCW (Frequency Modulated Continuous Wave) and ICW (Interrupted Continuous Wave). This is originally printed in 1969 and updated in 1999.


Screenshot 2018-09-04 at 2.20.50 PM.png


Same explanation here.

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IEEE paper talking about ICW radars, in 1976.

Screenshot 2018-09-04 at 2.26.49 PM.png
 
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Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
A lot better than yours which are gleaned from the marketing brochures of defense companies where you practically invented much of the things to connect the dots with.
O.M.G. you are getting so sickeningly dishonest it's becoming grotesque...

Is this a Thales marketing brochure, genius?:
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DDG 1000 will use a variation of the existing ESSMs and the SM-IIIA with modification to their respective guidance system software to consummate engagements utilizing “inertial” guidance commands instead of the “command” guidance normally associated with the Aegis Combat System to intercept their targets, Raytheon notes. For their terminal homing commands these missiles will use Interrupted Continuous Wave Illumination (ICWI) -- instead the Continuous Wave Illumination common on other warships – made possible by the SPY-3. ICWI is currently deployed by the German and Dutch Navies aboard their Trilateral Frigate Programs which also utilize the ESSM and SM-2 Block IIIA missile.

Is this a Thales marketing brochure, genius?:
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The APAR is being developed by The Netherlands, Germany, and Canada and is intended to be fielded aboard their newest and most capable ships. It has the ability to acquire several threats and simultaneously direct and provide illumination to multiple ESSMs (as well as Standard Missiles) to intercept those threats.

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APAR is a multifunction radar capable of fulfilling various tasks simultaneously; automatic detection and tracking of low altitude targets (e.g. sea skimmers), detection and tracking of air targets and missile guidance support. It is designed for the terminal guidance (CW/ICWI) requirements of SM-2 and ESSM missiles. Interrupted Continuous Wave Illumination (ICWI) enables a single fire control radar to control several missiles simultaneously, thereby greatly enhancing a ship's defence capabilities.

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The technology was developed to accompany Thales’ own active array EMPAR radar, and is based on Interrupted Continuous Wave Illumination (ICWI). ICWI guidance helps a single missile control radar guide several missiles simultaneously to several threats, instead of having a limited number of illuminators that can each focus on just one missile and one threat at a time. This has substantial benefits in the event of saturation attacks.

I could go on and on and on and on and on.... but I think even YOU get the picture at this point.

I guess you will now say that all these sources (including Johns Hopkins, no less) and myself have been duped by flashy big corporation marketing and you are the only genius who saw through all the hype and have been able to conclude via your high IQ that it's all just bullshit. hahahahahahaha

It is not and it currently doesn't handle a lot of missiles. The key is 'currently'. We are talking about current capabilities.
Actually, it is designed to do that exact thing, genius. The Akizuki and Asahiri classes were designed with mass saturation attacks in mind. That's why their Mk 41s are filled to the brim with 64 ESSM (and 16 ASW missiles), and their mission is to defend Kongous and Atagos from mass saturation missile attacks (and submarine threats). But you didn't know any of that, which is why you are perfectly happy to continuing making a laughably comical comparison between ATECS and whatever the hell CMS is on a 056. ROFLMAO

Lol, you really need to show why the Japanese should deviate from American practices which they are constantly exposed to.
Not really. You are the one saying the Murasame and others are somehow showing strong US influences. Not only this is a subjective opinion, it is retardedly inadequate in proving that those masts are steel rather than aluminum, especially if steel causes interference with a radar situated right next to it. In fact this line of argumentation is so retarded and gratuitously devoid of common sense that you arguing it just shows the depths to which you are willing to sink to drag a conversation into the weeds and overwhelm it with useless drivel.

If the radar arcs over to the EW, yeah, that means significant interference. Even if the interference is filtered out, it means reduced sensitivity for both the radar and the EW. You may have to accept the db loss there, run them separately or let the radar blank out when it swings towards the EW.
You are talking absolute nonsense here. Provide evidence for ANY IOTA of the crap you just pulled out of your ass here.

The fact that the Akizuki did not continue this design from the Takanami and Murasame, and no one else practically does, should tell that the Takanami-Murasame radar layout design is a failure and for that matter why OPS-24 was discontinued even for an advanced AESA radar.
No, genius. The Akizuki and Asahiri classes are different from the Murasame and Takanami classes because their missions are radically different. But like I said, you are totally clueless about this which is why you can advance your conspiracy theories about design failures for which you have less than no proof.
 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
You still have absolutely no idea what ICWI really means, and you totally made up a time sharing scheme that is impractical and nonsensical.
You repeating a lie over and over isn't going to make it any more true than before you started spewing it. By the way, you have never told us what you meant by "time-sharing". Myself and my dozens of sources have already told YOU, but you yourself have never told SDF. Go ahead and amuse us with your professorial acumen on the details of "time-sharing according to Tam". :)

Oh? Now you are contradicting what you are saying before that the missile rides the bean from launch to target.

And that's what I was saying all along, the missiles are mid phase guided via datalink until they are close to the target which is when the SPG-62 lights the target up.

Now you are trying to correct yourself here. I was the one who never said that. By implying that missiles ride the beam from launch to target, you imply that.

Even riding the beam gives the wrong idea, since it means the missile follows the same slant directional path of the beam. Using SARH, you can guide the missile to attack the target at a different aspect, particularly when some aircraft designs are made to reduce reflections back at the same direction of the emitter.
Like I said before, you repeating a lie over and over doesn't make it any more true than before you started spewing the lie. I gave you a simple task. A VERY simple task. Link and quote me directly where I was supposed to have said that a missile rides the beam from launch to target. I knew already that you would be as intellectually dishonest as you have been before, so I asked you to quote me literally instead of trying to dishonestly paraphrase and distort my words, and lo and behold, you do exactly that. How utterly pathetic.

First of all, "beam riding" missiles in the literal sense haven't been around since the 1960s, so either you are ridiculously out of date or you are simply arguing puke-style and setting up straw men to beat down. Second, when we talk about riding a beam nowadays, especially in reference to SARH-guided missiles, we are referring to the missile homing in on the terminal illumination of a fire control radar. I have repeatedly said this, and not even in the last couple posts where you thought you could press some kind of retarded advantage on me by claiming I somewhere said beam-riding from launch to target. Again, if you actually think this then go ahead and LINK and QUOTE me. Do it or GTFO already.

The size of the panels have a lot to do also with the size of the elements. An element for X-band would be much smaller than for an S-band, with L-band elements even bigger, and UHF-VHF elements are huge. Ku band elements are even smaller than X-band. Each element is sized consistent to the bandwidth.

Thus small ESAs are X or Ku-band and when you have this, these are primarily for gun and missile fire control functions, and for surface sea navigation.

Each APAR face alone has 3424 (?) elements, and that's a lot of elements in four faces. That is more way more than enough and still do track and scanning. If you have more engagement targets, you do less scan and track for targets and leave search and track to the other radars.
Wow, thank you for pointing that out. APAR has 3,000+ elements. And yet it employs ICWI. You just can't get around this annoying little detail, can you? LOL

And yet it is quite clear you are attempting to do so without.
Oh, I never claimed to have expertise in this matter. I simply point out the links and show people what I read. I am definitely not as professorial as you. I don't have the courage to educate myself via Wikipedia and then try to pretend I knew what I was talking all along by passing irrelevant gibberish off as personal knowledge.

You posted nothing useful. Furthermore your explanation is a wash.

I will leave you with this. Its a paper written in 1976.

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Never mentions ICWI at all, but refers to a very high update track capability which is what you would expect from CWI tracking, FMCW, or interrupted CWI, or a PRF update so high it can look like a CWI.

You want a textbook? You can find them in any library, especially college ones, or download some basic ones like this.
So which of these papers talk about "Continuous Wave Illumination"? The answer is none. The SPG-62 is a "continuous wave illuminator" with no tracking function at all and therefore no need to have any interruption in its emissions in order to receive a signal, which means your articles do not apply to CWI, as this concept is discussed in the context of modern missile fire control. In addition, the concept of interrupted continuous wave in the articles you cited is CLEARLY different from ICWI as is used today by Thales and by other less-genius-sources-compared-to-Tam, such as Johns Hopkins. I have provided not only links from non-Thales sources for you to clearly learn what ICWI is, I have cut and pasted their relevant portions directly into my post so that you can't help but read them.

And here is one more for APAR.

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Here you go, ESSM and SM-2 have a datalink, and they don't beam ride.


Also says both Active and Semi Active guidance with ICWI. With active guidance you don't need to illuminate the target, which means ICWI is used for tracking. That sounds like any pulsed radar.
OMG your reasoning skills are shockingly substandard here. ICWI isn't used for tracking just because active-guided missiles are used on the same ship. Yes, if a missile is active it doesn't need ICWI. Well what about the SARH-guided missiles (like both ESSM and SM-2) on the same ship, genius??? LOL I guess since ICWI is apparently used for "tracking" instead of illumination, these SARH missiles have no terminal illumination to speak of, and they will just get shot out for effect and to provide some free firework displays for the crew. hahahahaha
 
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