054/A FFG Thread II

Today at 12:30 PM
interestingly, at the time the first RN battleship obtained a radar (the Rodney, could be in 1938 but don't quote this date, I write off top of my head now),

it was unclear if it's an advantage or DISadvantage to mount it: the radar was let's say crude, and the Opfor would know something is coming ...

as we now know, the RN made the right choice LOL
later in the afternoon decided to check LOL so that it doesn't look like I tell sea stories here

I read it in the great book by Moretz "The RN and the Capital Ship in the Interwar Period";
the chapter Tactical Plot (LOL) ends with ... retyping quickly ...
"Finally, one last source of information available for plotting must be mentioned: radar. The RN was at the forefront in its development, and the Type 79X, operating on a wavelength of 4 meters, was fitted in Rodney and ... Sheffield ... in 1939. Its promise was not without risk, however, and in a service versed in exploiting the intentions of an adversary through signals intelligence, the danger that radar emanations by the fleet could prove of more use to an enemy was a concern. Indeed, Rodney has been able to detect Sheffield at a distance of 100 miles by tracking her radar emmisions during a late pre-war exercises."
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Yes, and you have still diluted this point to the point of uselessness. Your original intent was to try and downgrade ATECS by comparing it to the 056 combat data system. This approach has failed.

Downgrade it to what? The 056 CMS isn't a downgrade its a scaled application. Just like LCS also runs a CMS that has Aegis libraries.

It does not change the fact that ATECS ships does not have SM-2.

Moving the goal posts again, I see. We are talking about inherent ATECS capability, NOT current ship capability. Does ATECS have inherent long range capability? I don't know. Also, YOU don't know.

I am talking about current ship capability. That was my primarily focus. For now ATECS doesn't.

The Japanese certainly didn't follow the US with its radar design here so how ludicrous would it be for Japan to follow US practice of designing steel superstructures/masts for the Murasame and other classes? LOL The US only started reverting back to steel superstructures with the Arleigh Burke, so it certainly has a past history of aluminum. Many modern ships also use aluminum so it's not like some kind of radical idea.

Seriously when they got ships that look like clones of Burkes? Not to mention the Murasames and Takanamis show quite a strong US influence on their design.

Just one example: take a look at where the ESM mast of the Type 45 is compared to where the SMART-L is. Ask yourself how the ESM mast can function with the SMART-L constantly sweeping radar signals into it. I guess you have never heard of "blanking". It's been around for decades.

The SMART-L on the Type 45 is pretty distant from the ESM suites. If it sweeps past them you only blank out a narrow arc. On the other hand OPS-24 is right next in between the ship's EW suites.

There is no "time-sharing" of any kind in this description here. And why is that? Because you are describing CWI. A CONTINUOUS BEAM, not shared with any other target until that target is destroyed, is the one and only distinction between CWI and ICWI.

BUL.

INTERRUPTED CONTINUOUS Wave Illumination sounds like an oxymoron.

If you want to know what ICWI means ---

Continuous Wave means both receiver and transmitter are simultaneously receiving and transmitting at the same time, and you have an infinite wave form.

The problem of this is that there is leakage from the transmitter to the receiver that affects the sensitivity of the receiver.

Interrupted means there is an interruption circuit on the CWI circuit so that when the radar is processing, the transmission stops, allowing the radar to be fully receiving without transmission leakage. That improves the sensitivity. However the window for reception is halved because of that.

This is also more like a Pulsed radar because you now have a duty cycle, with send and receive. The difference of ICWI and PRF is that PRF circuits are made from the ground up for PRF, while ICWI is merely a CWI with an interruption circuit on the transmitter.

What do you mean "once more"? There wasn't a first time where you said time-sharing isn't ICWI. And if you had said it, you would still be wrong. It has NOTHING to do with "continuous wave form", whatever you mean by that.

Use some Google-fu and get a clue, man.

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And I quote: "The Mid-Course Guidance and Sampled Data Homing function is based on Interrupted Continuous Wave Illumination (ICWI), a Thales development with the APAR partners in the APAR radar program that enables a single missile control radar to guide several missiles simultaneously to several threats."

I know you would look up and refer to that marketing nonsense instead of the proper textbooks. Furthermore that's actually misleading. This ability comes because an AESA works on MIMO principles.

Where is your evidence that YJ-83 seekers are being or have been upgraded? None. Better seekers are typically incorporated via blocks of new production missiles, since the overwhelmingly most expensive part of a missile is the seeker and the hardware that supports it, and putting a new seeker into an old missile body is penny-wise and pound-foolish. It is certainly not a common practice, and one you would definitely have to provide evidence for.

You just need to follow all the defense expos throughout the years and from what the Chinese boards are saying.

Older missiles, if the budget allows, are also upgraded with new seekers, and all it takes is to change the guidance section, and that is not an unusual procedure. This upgrade is often done without bringing back the missile to the factory but inside the military base itself by qualified technicians.

Even then the Chinese would have consumed already many of their older missiles through their numerous live fire practices that involve hitting seaborne targets and have the missiles themselves get shot down by SAMs.

It should be added that in the '90s, the Chinese had access to French and Israeli radar technologies, and then later, Russian.


What??? Do you or do you not understand how Aegis and similar systems work? You think in an environment where there are hundreds or even thousands of targets, that the Aegis system will display every last one for human intervention to occur? LOL You have now missed the ENTIRE point of Aegis and similar systems. Aegis isn't for shooting down lone fighters or a couple missiles like what you have probably seen in the movies. Aegis is for when human decision-making is utterly overwhelmed by the sheer number of targets and automation has to take over in order to identify, track, prioritize, and attack the multitudes of targets that will characterize modern warfare and especially enemy missile saturation attacks. No, there will be no terminals displaying blips on radars for humans to have "30 seconds" to make decisions on. Once Aegis is fully turned on, you will be doing little more than sitting back and watching it do the work that it was meant to.


It does not change that seeing hundreds or thousands of targets in the screen is not a qualification for a better radar or CMS. Threat discrimination and confirmation should rank higher, as well as accuracy of range determination and velocity tracking, and resistance to not just ECM but to filter background interference and scatter.

I don't really believe anything what you say. There is always big skepticism about the machine in the chain which is why there is always considerable oversight and human decision making.
 
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He is clearly referring to humans being present in the decision-making, or his response doesn't make sense. ...
looks like you're right:
...





It does not change that seeing hundreds or thousands of targets in the screen is not a qualification for a better radar or CMS. Threat discrimination and confirmation should rank higher, as well as accuracy of range determination and velocity tracking, and resistance to not just ECM but to filter background interference and scatter.

I don't really believe anything what you say. There is always big skepticism about the machine in the chain which is why there is always considerable oversight and human decision making.

also peculiar is 'ICWI denial' part:
I know you would look up and refer to that marketing nonsense instead of the proper textbooks. Furthermore that's actually misleading. This ability comes because an AESA works on MIMO principles.
(of course you'd notice LOL just wanted to read it twice)

by the way I've heard of ICWI years ago, while reading about the Akizukis
(now found using google, dated to 2005,
Thales Wins Missile Control Contract in Japan
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)
 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
Downgrade it to what? The 056 CMS isn't a downgrade its a scaled application. Just like LCS also runs a CMS that has Aegis libraries.

It does not change the fact that ATECS ships does not have SM-2.

I am talking about current ship capability. That was my primarily focus. For now ATECS doesn't.

Seriously when they got ships that look like clones of Burkes? Not to mention the Murasames and Takanamis show quite a strong US influence on their design.

The SMART-L on the Type 45 is pretty distant from the ESM suites. If it sweeps past them you only blank out a narrow arc. On the other hand OPS-24 is right next in between the ship's EW suites.
Please just stop this farce already. You have dragged this down to such a ludicrous level that it literally sickens me to have to read any more of this, much less respond to it.

BUL.

INTERRUPTED CONTINUOUS Wave Illumination sounds like an oxymoron.

If you want to know what ICWI means ---

Continuous Wave means both receiver and transmitter are simultaneously receiving and transmitting at the same time, and you have an infinite wave form.

The problem of this is that there is leakage from the transmitter to the receiver that affects the sensitivity of the receiver.

Interrupted means there is an interruption circuit on the CWI circuit so that when the radar is processing, the transmission stops, allowing the radar to be fully receiving without transmission leakage. That improves the sensitivity. However the window for reception is halved because of that.

This is also more like a Pulsed radar because you now have a duty cycle, with send and receive. The difference of ICWI and PRF is that PRF circuits are made from the ground up for PRF, while ICWI is merely a CWI with an interruption circuit on the transmitter.
JFC what are you even talking about here? Having obviously lost this debate, you are now muttering all kinds of nonsensical gibberish to try and cloud the waters of a subject which is very easy to understand. The fact that you make totally hilarious claims like "INTERRUPTED CONTINUOUS Wave Illumination sounds like an oxymoron" and "Continuous Wave means both receiver and transmitter are simultaneously receiving and transmitting at the same time, and you have an infinite wave form" unambiguously demonstrates that you have absolutely ZERO idea what you are talking about here. The fact that a simple Google search would have been sufficient for you learn what ICWI is and how it time-shares targets leads me to believe that you have indeed done this, but having found that you were so badly wrong, think now that somehow doubling down on your ignorance and going way off the deep end by literally mumbling gibberish, is somehow going to mask the fact that you don't even know what you are saying.

CWI illuminators refer to illuminators like the Mk 99, which have to light up a single target all the way until the ESSM or the SM-2 strikes the lit-up target. They have to do this because they are mechanical illuminators and lack the physical agility to time-share their beams between multiple targets. ICWI refers to the capability of ESAs like APAR and later ESAs to rapidly (electronically) cycle illumination beams between multiple targets nearly simultaneously so that to the ESSM or SM-2 riding the beam in towards the target it appears that the beam is continuous, or at least continuous enough to hit a target with high precision. This isn't rocket science. And it has nothing to do with "leakage from transmitters", "infinite wave forms", "interruption circuits", or "windows for reception". This is LITERALLY gibberish that you are just throwing out there for the purpose of obfuscation. You're not fooling anyone at this point, so cut it out.

I know you would look up and refer to that marketing nonsense instead of the proper textbooks. Furthermore that's actually misleading. This ability comes because an AESA works on MIMO principles.
Ahh yes, and an internet professor like you has read the "proper textbooks", which are as yet totally uncited, by the way. Sorry, but ICWI is so easy to find and corroborate with multiple sources that it literally swamps your humorous attempt to sound technical here.

You just need to follow all the defense expos throughout the years and from what the Chinese boards are saying.

Older missiles, if the budget allows, are also upgraded with new seekers, and all it takes is to change the guidance section, and that is not an unusual procedure. This upgrade is often done without bringing back the missile to the factory but inside the military base itself by qualified technicians.

Even then the Chinese would have consumed already many of their older missiles through their numerous live fire practices that involve hitting seaborne targets and have the missiles themselves get shot down by SAMs.

It should be added that in the '90s, the Chinese had access to French and Israeli radar technologies, and then later, Russian.
Really? Which missiles have had older missile bodies retrofitted with newer sensor packages? If it's "not an unusual procedure", surely you can name some missiles and the seeker upgrade packages they have received. Go ahead.

As for access to Exocet technology, that's possibly true. Or it's possibly nonsense. Even if it were true, Chinese tech base of the 1990's certainly would not have been able to advance any foreign technology as fast as foreign countries were capable of. China has only been catching up rapidly in the last 10 years (or even less) in this regard.

It does not change that seeing hundreds or thousands of targets in the screen is not a qualification for a better radar or CMS. Threat discrimination and confirmation should rank higher, as well as accuracy of range determination and velocity tracking, and resistance to not just ECM but to filter background interference and scatter.

I don't really believe anything what you say. There is always big skepticism about the machine in the chain which is why there is always considerable oversight and human decision making.
Who said anything about seeing hundreds or thousands of targets on a screen? NOBODY. Stop making up things to attack; it's dishonest. Aegis can track thousands of targets, but this capability has nothing to do with anything showing up on any screen. YOU are the only one talking about screens.

Also, you are arguing for nothing here, as usual. While number of targets tracked is quantifiable and is typically used as a surrogate for how advanced a particular combat data system is, even if just in a general sense, there is no easy way to quantify accuracy of target tracks, which nobody here is arguing is somehow less important than the number of targets trackable. Regardless, you are also now trying (once again) to move the goal posts. Your original quip was in reference to the large numbers of targets tracked and how a human would be overwhelmed by having to decide on hundreds to thousands of targets in less than "30 seconds" when in reality in such circumstances human would be mostly or completely removed from the decision-making process altogether, which is in fact the raison d'etre of Aegis, a fact that went right over you. Having missed (and realized) this, you are now trying to talk about quality of tracks vs quantity of tracks. Sure we can talk about that, or we can stick to the point, something which you seem to frequently not like to do once it's not going well for you.
 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
looks like you're right:


also peculiar is 'ICWI denial' part:

(of course you'd notice LOL just wanted to read it twice)

by the way I've heard of ICWI years ago, while reading about the Akizukis
(now found using google, dated to 2005,
Thales Wins Missile Control Contract in Japan
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

)
Yes, I have to say that his ICWI-denialism is particularly humorous.
 
... We are talking about inherent ATECS capability, NOT current ship capability. Does ATECS have inherent long range capability? I don't know. Also, YOU don't know.


...
what's interesting, though, the Japanese have picked
Aegis J7 = Aegis 9/BMD 5.1
Jul 31, 2018
now noticed inside

Japan launches first ship of new destroyer class
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it should be

"Aegis Baseline J7 is the Japanese equivalent for the current Aegis Baseline 9/BMD 5.1 standard."

related ("The Baseline 9/BMD 5.1 variant is referred to as J7 for Japanese destroyers." etc.) is
Lockheed Martin gets $135m contract for Aegis Baseline 9 deliveries to Japan
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for their
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(BMD+CEC capable)

I mean they picked Aegis J7, not ATECS ('Japanese Aegis')

just saying
 
... There is always big skepticism about the machine in the chain which is why there is always considerable oversight and human decision making.
my take:

Aegis' reaction to ANY saturation attack has to be pre-programmed because of the tactics involved, basically deciding about parameters of the salvos (*) like
  • sequence(s) of Shoot-Look
  • type of missile(s)
  • number of missiles (now Iron Man might recall our discussion related to P_k, LOL)
AND executing those salvos (which VLS cell at what moment etc.)

impossible to leave this to a human (who would be under total stress as s/he might get killed in a minute :-(

(*) I of course assume layered defense
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Please just stop this farce already. You have dragged this down to such a ludicrous level that it literally sickens me to have to read any more of this, much less respond to it.

Really how? All I can see is a personal attack once you cannot respond to it.

JFC what are you even talking about here? Having obviously lost this debate, you are now muttering all kinds of nonsensical gibberish to try and cloud the waters of a subject which is very easy to understand. The fact that you make totally hilarious claims like "INTERRUPTED CONTINUOUS Wave Illumination sounds like an oxymoron" and "Continuous Wave means both receiver and transmitter are simultaneously receiving and transmitting at the same time, and you have an infinite wave form" unambiguously demonstrates that you have absolutely ZERO idea what you are talking about here. The fact that a simple Google search would have been sufficient for you learn what ICWI is and how it time-shares targets leads me to believe that you have indeed done this, but having found that you were so badly wrong, think now that somehow doubling down on your ignorance and going way off the deep end by literally mumbling gibberish, is somehow going to mask the fact that you don't even know what you are saying.

You are the one who don't know what you are talking about and can't separate marketing from the textual. If you do a Google Search on Interrupted Continuous Wave Illumination this is what comes up.

Screenshot 2018-09-02 at 7.10.45 PM - Edited.png

You should just read some of it.


CWI illuminators refer to illuminators like the Mk 99, which have to light up a single target all the way until the ESSM or the SM-2 strikes the lit-up target. They have to do this because they are mechanical illuminators and lack the physical agility to time-share their beams between multiple targets. ICWI refers to the capability of ESAs like APAR and later ESAs to rapidly (electronically) cycle illumination beams between multiple targets nearly simultaneously so that to the ESSM or SM-2 riding the beam in towards the target it appears that the beam is continuous, or at least continuous enough to hit a target with high precision. This isn't rocket science. And it has nothing to do with "leakage from transmitters", "infinite wave forms", "interruption circuits", or "windows for reception". This is LITERALLY gibberish that you are just throwing out there for the purpose of obfuscation. You're not fooling anyone at this point, so cut it out.

You made that up do you?

An illuminator does not light up a target all the way and missile seekers don't have the sheer range for that. If you are targeting SARH within 30 to 40 kilometers, you can do a direct illumination of the target because the range is close enough for the seeker to catch. But if its over 50 to 100km and over, you would need a datalink to sent the missile towards the target, then light up the target when the missile reaches its terminal seeker range. This is also true of aircraft on long range engagement.

ESSM and SM-2 doesn't ride the beam. The US hasn't built a beam rider for decades since Talos. A beam rider has radar receivers on the tail of the missile, and a radar beam is used to direct the missile towards the target.

If you light up an aerial target from a great distance with your target illumination, then expect the missile to fly all the way there, guess what will happen. The aircraft's own RWRs would warn the aircraft that you are being already being targeted by a fire control radar and CWI is a good indication a missile is on its way. A missile having a long time to reach the target, the target would already have enacted various countermeasures, that is going to end up defeating the missile.

If you have your search and tracking radar on the target, the target also knows this, but does not know a missile is on the way, until the target is within the missile seeker basket, and then you light up. The aircraft would still receive and respond to the threat, but it has a much shorter response window.

Another thing is that CWI itself doesn't have much range compared to pulse radar. Energy is sent continuously, unless pulse radar, where it is stopped, built up, then released as a pulse with a high peak power. Since receiving has its own dedicated phase --- it is not interfered by the transmission and has higher receptive power. This is why long range radars are all pulse radars. Note its easy for RWRs to identify CW vs. PRF, and with that, the stage of missile prosecution.

In the case of APAR, where the radar is both search, track and engage, the radars need to switch between Pulse or PRF modes and CWI modes, the PRF you need for search, scan and track, the CWI you need for target engagement. Why not make a continuous wave that acts more like a pulse radar?


Ahh yes, and an internet professor like you has read the "proper textbooks", which are as yet totally uncited, by the way. Sorry, but ICWI is so easy to find and corroborate with multiple sources that it literally swamps your humorous attempt to sound technical here.

Why don't you actually read the text books? If you are good in Googling, why don't you try?


Really? Which missiles have had older missile bodies retrofitted with newer sensor packages? If it's "not an unusual procedure", surely you can name some missiles and the seeker upgrade packages they have received. Go ahead.

Recently the latest block of Exocets with the French Navy. Older ones will be updated to the same standard. Harpoons and Standards are also subjected to upgrades, although Harpoons have been lapsed for the last decade or so.

As for access to Exocet technology, that's possibly true. Or it's possibly nonsense. Even if it were true, Chinese tech base of the 1990's certainly would not have been able to advance any foreign technology as fast as foreign countries were capable of. China has only been catching up rapidly in the last 10 years (or even less) in this regard.

It does not really matter what happened thirty years ago. Last ten years? More like nearly twenty now. You cannot expect their know how to stay the same after they figured out the Moskit.

Who said anything about seeing hundreds or thousands of targets on a screen? NOBODY. Stop making up things to attack; it's dishonest. Aegis can track thousands of targets, but this capability has nothing to do with anything showing up on any screen. YOU are the only one talking about screens.

How will you know which of these targets are bad or good? Who will determine it? Tracking hundreds of signals includes tracking false ones.

Also, you are arguing for nothing here, as usual. While number of targets tracked is quantifiable and is typically used as a surrogate for how advanced a particular combat data system is, even if just in a general sense, there is no easy way to quantify accuracy of target tracks, which nobody here is arguing is somehow less important than the number of targets trackable. Regardless, you are also now trying (once again) to move the goal posts. Your original quip was in reference to the large numbers of targets tracked and how a human would be overwhelmed by having to decide on hundreds to thousands of targets in less than "30 seconds" when in reality in such circumstances human would be mostly or completely removed from the decision-making process altogether, which is in fact the raison d'etre of Aegis, a fact that went right over you. Having missed (and realized) this, you are now trying to talk about quality of tracks vs quantity of tracks. Sure we can talk about that, or we can stick to the point, something which you seem to frequently not like to do once it's not going well for you.

Accuracy of track and the number of targets track is inverse of each other.

The higher the track quality, the lower the number of targets being tracked, and furthermore, the range starts to shorten. A radar searching for targets and a radar tracking targets don't work the same way. A radar on a search mode, or surveying more targets over a larger 3D volume has a slower rotational sweep and scan rate to allow for a longer dwell time; PRF is longer, with a higher peak power and a longer duty cycle since the radar has to wait for the echoes. The frequency is also longer for lower atmospheric attenuation that lets it travel greater distance but offers lower discrimination.

But when threats are found, the radar moves to the next stage. Sweep and scan rates increase. If the radar is mechanical it is turning faster. PRF becomes much shorter, with short duty cycles and the radar may also move to a higher frequency which shortens range but increases discrimination. The target's range and speed becomes more precise, but with more radio energy directed at the threat targets, there is less radar to search around, and the number of targets being tracked decreases. This is another point why many ships have secondary search radars.
 
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Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
my take:

Aegis' reaction to ANY saturation attack has to be pre-programmed because of the tactics involved, basically deciding about parameters of the salvos (*) like
  • sequence(s) of Shoot-Look
  • type of missile(s)
  • number of missiles (now Iron Man might recall our discussion related to P_k, LOL)
AND executing those salvos (which VLS cell at what moment etc.)

impossible to leave this to a human (who would be under total stress as s/he might get killed in a minute :-(

(*) I of course assume layered defense

A radar, unless its a SAR or Synthetic Aperture type, does not see or acknowledge form. The only data it gets from the object is Heading, Range and Velocity.
 
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