054/A FFG Thread II

Dante80

Dante80

Junior Member
Registered Member
hkbc said:
If that's the case the PLAN must either have or are expecting a big leap in sonar and/or co-operative engagement capability, 50km is like twice the range of other missiles of its type. Alternatively the weapon is designed to take out the sub after it's launched torps removing the detection issue and where the to target speed and range of the missile comes into play.
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A source sends the coordinates (using a predictive algorithm table) to the ship, the ship launches the missile. The missile releases the torp at said coordinates, the torp pings and chases the target.

You don't need the same ship being the source of the target detection. ASROC type weapons have an unguided (inertial only) rocket delivery phase. They are simply designed to send a payload on a particular set of coordinates. The payload itself (the torp) does the guided job. Cooperative engagement capability for ASROC type weapons has been a mainstay since the 60's (and tied closely to the LAMPS program).

The missile having more range simply means it can lob a torpedo further away. Which is a good thing. See the UUM-125B for the concept at hand.
 
H

hkbc

Junior Member
Dante80 said:
A source sends the coordinates (using a predictive algorithm table) to the ship, the ship launches the missile. The missile releases the torp at said coordinates, the torp pings and chases the target.

You don't need the same ship being the source of the target detection. ASROC type weapons have an unguided (inertial only) rocket delivery phase. They are simply designed to send a payload on a particular set of coordinates. The payload itself (the torp) does the guided job. Cooperative engagement capability for ASROC type weapons has been a mainstay since the 60's (and tied closely to the LAMPS program).

The missile having more range simply means it can lob a torpedo further away. Which is a good thing.
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Yes, I know how it works, it's not rocket science (well OK it is!) but ASROC has less than half the 50km range, Ikara, Malafon were guided missiles with longer ranges but even these didn't get any where near 50km, only subroc had that kind of range but needed it because of the nuclear warhead! In European navies helicopters have provided the reach and replaced missiles, but they provide independent search and kill capability.

There's always a trade off between size and range, just like choosing the appropriate bullet calibre, a 0.5BMG has much better range than a 5.56mm but it's too heavy for general assault use, the interesting thing is the choice of extreme range. Pretty sure they could fit a simple rocket booster on an ASROC to double its range but they haven't!
 
Dante80

Dante80

Junior Member
Registered Member
hkbc said:
Yes, I know how it works, it's not rocket science (well OK it is!) but ASROC has less than half the 50km range, Ikara, Malafon were guided missiles with longer ranges but even these didn't get any where near 50km, only subroc had that kind of range but needed it because of the nuclear warhead! In European navies helicopters have provided the reach and replaced missiles, but they provide independent search and kill capability.

There's always a trade off between size and range, just like choosing the appropriate bullet calibre, a 0.5BMG has much better range than a 5.56mm but it's too heavy for general assault use, the interesting thing is the choice of extreme range. Pretty sure they could fit a simple rocket booster on an ASROC to double its range but they haven't!
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They haven't, because they didn't bother to. As I hinted above, take a look at the Common ASW Standoff Weapon (Sea Lance) in the 80s. It got dropped with the dissolution of the USSR, and the same thing happened with most other ASW and ASuW projects (to the point that today modern US destroyers don't even carry Harpoon missiles). This doesn't mean that there was a trade-off study for the useful range of the system. Case in point, the Soviet Union did field the 50km range Snowstorm/Metel system based on the Malakhit ASuW missile.

To reiterate, more range is not a problem and system range is not a trade-off really for current or future weapons in this category (at least as far as major combatants are concerned). If the cell can carry it, it can field it. The whole thing is about finding the target in the first place, so the helis remain the primary weapon for ship based ASW doctrine. A further reaching ASROC is simply an extension of the ships kill umbrella in a network based cooperative doctrine.
 
Jura The idiot

Jura The idiot

General
seeing missile-torpedoes here ... LOL I like Italians so my favorite is MILAS; now checked the
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, says just "in excess of 35 km in all directions" about max. reach; clipped this out:
5c4647dc97270f8dd768bd5b64c822e1.jpg
 
I

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
It's certainly possible that the TAS/VDS on the 054A+ has enough resolution to allow direction prosecution of targets at 50+km, hence there may be no need for any offboard sensors or datalinked information.
 
Dante80

Dante80

Junior Member
Registered Member
Iron Man said:
It's certainly possible that the TAS/VDS on the 054A+ has enough resolution to allow direction prosecution of targets at 50+km, hence there may be no need for any offboard sensors or datalinked information.
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This is possible, but the system is designed for non direct detection too. For the frigate to do actual ASW work itself, it has to sweep at pretty low speeds. Sometimes that is not possible or even wanted.
 
I

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
Dante80 said:
This is possible, but the system is designed for non direct detection too. For the frigate to do actual ASW work itself, it has to sweep at pretty low speeds. Sometimes that is not possible or even wanted.
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Actually, that is exactly how ASW is done by ships using TAS/VDS, especially in a formation like a CSG or SAG. Google "ASW sprint and drift". What is not wanted is a sub right under your nose about to kill you. It is certainly possible when other ships in your formation are covering your ass so that you can do the job of proper ASW. Which again is sprint and drift using your towed arrays. And helos. And SOSUS. And everything else you can bring to the table.
 
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