054/A FFG Thread II

plawolf

Lieutenant General
The Russian system looks like this.


View attachment 45480 View attachment 45481 View attachment 45482


Its just wires connecting to the end of the canister to ignite the compressed gas container beneath the missile.


Why the PLAN would hot launch their HHQ-16 when the PLA cold launches their HQ-16 is beyond me. You would think they would try to be compatible. One should also note how different the way the PLA chooses to launch their HQ-16s while the Russians simply launch them from open slant launchers.

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The most obvious reasons are flexibility and reaction time.

The hot launc VLS could also launch ASROCs, and quad packed shorter ranged missiles as well if the PLAN invests in them.

A land based SAM only needs to launch 1 type of missile.

Similar deal. For a land based HQ16, it would be operating as part of an IADS, along with long and short ranged missile systems.

The 054A only has the HQ16. That means the HQ16 needs to be able to engage targets at both medium and short range.

A hot launch means the missile is ready to vector thrust and turn to engage a target almost as soon as it clears the cell. A cold launcher HQ16 would need to wait a couple seconds more for its engines to light before it can start even thinking about turning.

That’s why the Cold launched Tor needs a cluster of maneuvering rockets to point its nose before the engines kick in
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
The most obvious reasons are flexibility and reaction time.

The hot launc VLS could also launch ASROCs, and quad packed shorter ranged missiles as well if the PLAN invests in them.

A land based SAM only needs to launch 1 type of missile.

Similar deal. For a land based HQ16, it would be operating as part of an IADS, along with long and short ranged missile systems.

The 054A only has the HQ16. That means the HQ16 needs to be able to engage targets at both medium and short range.

A hot launch means the missile is ready to vector thrust and turn to engage a target almost as soon as it clears the cell. A cold launcher HQ16 would need to wait a couple seconds more for its engines to light before it can start even thinking about turning.

That’s why the Cold launched Tor needs a cluster of maneuvering rockets to point its nose before the engines kick in

A cold launch system can do all that. Cold launch could also launch an ASROC or quadpack shorter ranged missiles. For example, the 9M96 family of missiles (S-350, S-400), which includes 9M96E and 9M96E2, quadpacks within a single canister used for the 48N6E (S-300 missile), and all are cold launched.

A cold launched missile can flip over via TVC as soon as it clears the tube and fires the rocket engine.

This HQ-9 certainly didn't take a pause before flipping down towards its target.


Around 1:10 you can see the cold launched Shtil-1 do the same thing rather quickly.


Standard missiles are shot up straight up to the sky so high it takes a while to arc down to the target. If you accelerate so fast up to the sky, you need time to go down to sea level.



Watch how the HHQ-16 does it in comparison at around 1:00. The speed wrought by hot launching takes you really high before you can flip the missile over.

 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Russian missile seems to be 92 pixels in diameter, with inner width of the cell (not the circular missile container!) some 177 pixels. That would amount to 0.65 meters if missile 0.34 m in diameter.

There is absolutely no engineering reason why hhq16 could not be stored and fired from rectangular containers. standard missile, sea sparrow missile, aster, they're all fired from such containers.

reason for circular container may be commonality with hq16, and thus some cost saving. but that too makes little sense since hhq16 is hot launched, so most of the commonality is thrown out of the window anyway.

HAD hhq16 been made to be cold launched, than circular container makes perfect sense. It takes less space, meaning the gas generator can be made smaller than if the gas it had to fill a larger, rectangular space (less pressure in that case). And rectangular container is not as structurally strong, requiring extra braces, probably taking a bit more width and making the container heavier.

but, since hhq16 is hot launched, there's really no reason not to have it maximize the use of the cell. Heck, even the missile alone could have been made a bit more efficient, being lighter, as no/less weight would be spent on hinged fins. (perhaps fins could be made so they don't fold at all and still fit inside the container).

Years ago, i thought h/ajk16 launcher was tailor made around hhq16. it made sense somehow. but now it seems that's not the case. so either there is another weapon around which the launcher was tailor made around... OR it really is about miniscule savings and cutting corners, while losing the potential to either have slightly better weapons or have the whole VLS cell smaller and lighter.

While it's possible it was sized for some non-defined future growth potential, that doesn't seem likely, as we're talking about a 10+ year old system. Usually one would size up launchers for at least something in development, not for something completely non-defined.


Hard to see why they would do it for economy. A hot launched VLS system is going to be more expensive --- and heavier --- than a cold launched system due to the VLS being more complex with all the transfer channels, and made strong enough to resist the stress. It is also not as compact, due to all the channels underneath, along with the central vent that separates the cells.

Is it possible this is being tailored around another weapon, or family of weapons? But if so, why does this weapon need to be hot launched?

Going back to the cold launched vs hot launched issue, it should be noted that while the HHQ-9 is cold launched, the YJ-18 is hot launched. The YJ-18 is a much larger missile, and being a long range antiship missile, doesn't have the same urgency to reach down to the sea level for an intercept. If we go back to the Russians, that even if their SAMs are cold launched, the Klubs and Kalibrs are all hot launched just like the YJ-18. One reason for this is that the missile are air breathers and need a minimum air speed to compress enough air into their engines before they could ignite.

Start at 0:34

As for the circular vs. square canister thing, my theory is that unlike the land Buks that don't have folding fins, the HQ-16 even in its land based form, always had folding tail fins (see where the spoke is on the tail fin). This is in order for the missile to fit the rounded tubes. The PLA vehicle can carry six of the missiles versus the Russians with four using an open slanted configuration. Protecting the missiles inside the canister rather than exposing them to the elements can ensure better reliability, as the missiles can sit in the open for a long time.

Given that the missile can already fit within a tight rounded tube, there was no benefit in going for a square tube for the naval version which appears like a copy of the land version.

L2.jpg


We have seen quad packed missiles into rounded canisters before (9M96 missiles into the rounded canister for the 48N6E missile, for the S-400 complex.) This still leaves me with the question if the H/APJ-16 can quadpack four SD-50/DK-10 missiles (these missiles have a diameter of .26m), and will they require a specific canister for that?
 

Janiz

Senior Member
Yeah, but you should rather compare it with this

HMAS_Ballarat_%28FFH_155%29_fires_RIM-162_missiles_in_July_2016.JPG


SM-2 on a warship with BMD capabilities have quiet different purpose.
 
what's discussed in this page I think boils down to minimal range of an SM-2
now I used google, didn't find it: sources to various extent boast about its maximal range though LOL

anyone?
 

Janiz

Senior Member
Well, I think there's hardly anyone who would use SM-2's a primary weapon in the terminal phase of anti-ship missile interception and we all can agree on that I assume?
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Yeah, but you should rather compare it with this

HMAS_Ballarat_%28FFH_155%29_fires_RIM-162_missiles_in_July_2016.JPG


SM-2 on a warship with BMD capabilities have quiet different purpose.


SM-2 does NOT have BMD capabilities. That's the SM-3 and the SM-6. Don't confuse the three. The SM-2 is a much smaller and lighter missile than the SM-3, which is triple staged, and the SM-6 which is heavier than a Tomahawk.
 
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