054/A FFG Thread II

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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Well, IMHO, the deficiencies of the current US LCS should not negate other navies from taking the good ideas and capitalizing on them with a platform without the deficiencies.

For example, I believe the US could have created an LCS that had the mission capabilities as well as the intrinsic armaments and combat ratings necessary.

An LCS with a decent, albeit not AEGIS, 3-D radar and guidance capability with just eight Mk-42 cells would have solved most of the armament problems. Use four cells for ESSM and you have 16 ESSMs to augment the 21 RAMs. Use the other four cells for a decent ASM and you have solved the ASuW capability issue.

Keep the large hanger, add decent hull sonar and two 3 tube torpedo launchers and you have a very decent intrinsic ASW capability.

Now add modules to the module space to get your other missions. Fpr example:

- An enhanced ASW module would include a TAS and a UUV for ASW.

- A CMM module would allow for the landing and servicing of a Se Dragon helo with a towed counter mine package. Add a specialized UUV for mine hunting and disposal.

- An enhanced ASuW could add the missiles to the vessel and the helos to counter swarming speed boats.

- A special forces module could add the launches and provisions to support and control SPECOPS groups from the vessel.

That is how I would do it. Such a vessel could be "enhanced" with the modules to those specific needs and yet still have the intrinsic capability for AAW, ASW, and ASuW to cover most deployments.

The Chinese could easily develop a vessel in the 3,500 ton range to do the same and the added flexibility of the modules could be used whenever necessary without sacrificing the basic, intrinsic utility of the vessels.


I agree with everything you wrote, however unfortunate as it may be, I think the deficiencies and characteristics I listed regarding the LCS are its current defining properties as a ship class, which is why I was confused as to what PanAsian meant by saying the the PLAN should an LCS of its own, because the LCS and FF derived from it, at present and into the forseeable future will still lack the armament and sensors that they deserve for their size.

I think it is worth all PLAN surface combatants in future to have a degree of modular function built in, however realistically I doubt they will be changed all that often. It does not seem to be a quick and easy task, and requires dedicated port facilities.
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
Alright! You win the debate! However, one issue I am still wondering is the time it takes to build a high sea fleet. It took China some 10-15 years to construct the current fleet of some 10 modern destroyers. Yes, there are many type 052Ds under construction in Jiangnan, but sea trials and fitting out usually take two years or more. Therefore, by the time China possess a fully modern fleet you mentioned, it could be well after 2020s. Who know what the U.S. and Japan will have after that, possibly generations ahead. Maybe the PLAN in 2025 will look like the USN in 2010. That's my guess. The 15-20 years gap will always be there.

Well, not sure whether you agree that "catching up" (like what the PLAN is doing now) is somewhat easier than to develop new technologies (like the USN is doing, maybe) .. so the tech gap between USN and PLAN will shrink for sure, to perhaps only 5 years in 2025-2030, but we won't see PLAN is leading the naval tech until at least 2040-2050. The US is trying hard to keep the edge for as long as possible, the arm embargo to China is one of the many means
 
Well, IMHO, the deficiencies of the current US LCS should not negate other navies from taking the good ideas and capitalizing on them with a platform without the deficiencies.

For example, I believe the US could have created an LCS that had the mission capabilities as well as the intrinsic armaments and combat ratings necessary.

An LCS with a decent, albeit not AEGIS, 3-D radar and guidance capability with just eight Mk-41 cells would have solved most of the armament problems. Use four cells for ESSM and you have 16 ESSMs to augment the 21 RAMs. Use the other four cells for a decent ASM and you have solved the ASuW capability issue.

Keep the large hanger, add decent hull sonar and two 3 tube torpedo launchers and you have a very decent intrinsic ASW capability.

Now add modules to the module space to get your other missions. For example:

- An enhanced ASW module would include a TAS and a UUV for ASW.

- A CMM module would allow for the landing and servicing of a MH-53E Sea Dragon helo with a towed counter mine package. Add a specialized UUV for mine hunting and disposal.

- An enhanced ASuW could add the specialized missiles to the vessel and the helos to counter swarming speed boats.

- A special forces module could add the launches and provisions to support and control SPECOPS groups from the vessel.

That is how I would do it. Such a vessel could be "enhanced" with the modules to those specific needs when necessary and yet still have the intrinsic capability for AAW, ASW, and ASuW to cover most deployments.

The Chinese could easily develop a vessel in the 3,500 ton range to do the same and the added flexibility of the modules could be used whenever necessary without sacrificing the basic, intrinsic utility of the vessels.

I was trying to say what Jeff Head said. Thanks Jeff Head!
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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I was trying to say what Jeff Head said. Thanks Jeff Head!

But challenges remain, in that wanting to keep a fully modular ship makes changing modules difficult and puts your port facilities at even greater risk, and the LCS's speed is also not worth the cost and engineering difficulties either. And trying to fit all that, along with an 8 cell VLS, small PAR, along with the redesign and reinforcement work needed into a ship of only 3500 tons will be quite difficult as well. I can't see it being smaller than a 054A, especially if it's meant to hold multiple types of modules at once.

If you want your ship to have VLS, SAM, and phased array radar, then you may as well go for a real sized frigate instead.
If you don't want your ship to have VLS, SAM, and PAR, then your ship can be smaller, yes, but your ship will also be inherently vulnerable to medium tier opponents and be unable to operate alone or in small groups without overwatch by larger DDGs or FFGs.

But let's pretend that the PLAN does decide to pursue such a ship. A 3500-4000 ton ship with 8 VLS, able to hold modules, with small PAR. You say that you want to build a decently large number for longer endurance patrols in westpac. Okay.
But to build enough of them for this role, will eat up a lot of shipbuilding space and budget that the PLAN needs for their frigates.

See, the difference between an up armed LCS like ship and a true frigate, is that a frigate will be able to contribute more to a taskforce's air defence. It has more firepower, more advanced radar, and more command/control. It is able to survive low-medium threats alone or in small groups, and do things from chase pirates to patrol westpac during times of high tension.
An up armed LCS will have far less to contribute in a CSG or ESG, with only bare minimum self defence capability, slightly more than ciws. I wouldn't be confident sending them alone or in small groups around westpac, where they could come up across an aegis destroyer or more, or could be spotted by a flight of super hornets armed with SLAM-ERs. They likely won't have the ability to do multiple simultaneous anti air engagements at once due to less sophisticated radar, and with shorter range so they'll see any ships or aircraft closer in as well.

If you really want the PLAN to patrol the western pacific during times of high tension and let your ships survive, then what you want is frigates. Enough SAMs to defend against a persistent air attack, with radar powerful enough to see aircraft and incoming missiles at good range and the ability to vector multiple SAMs at multiple targets at once. Enough AShM firepower to ward off or give a good fight against a destroyer or an enemy SAG if operating in a group.

At this stage we are basically talking about fleet structure.
I think the PLAN would be fine with a fleet of destroyers, frigates and corvettes.
055s, 052C/Ds, and 054As/054Bs, and 056/A/Xs. Frigates can contribute to a taskforce, and they can also defend themselves and other 056s during patrols of westpac during wartime.

If you want the PLAN to pursue an up armed LCS, then you'll probably have to bite into the budget of corvette production, or frigate production but more likely both. You'll end up with a large number of ships with minimal air defence capability (more than a ciws but less than a frigate), and only able to contribute ASW to a taskforce, and less survivable in a group than a group of frigates or even a single frigate with multiple 056s I hazard.

I'd prefer a large flexible fleet of true, 4000-5000 ton frigates rather than a smaller number of such frigates but a larger number of up 8 cell, small radar, 3500 ton LCS.
The USN might be able to afford to buy a large number of underarmed LCS -- that's because they have a massive number of Aegis destroyers and cruisers to provide all the firepower. But the PLAN currently and likely will still rely on frigates to provide a medium-high end air defence capability with respectable firepower, to round off their overall fleet. Frigates for the PLAN still provide a respectably large percentage of firepower and capability to the overall fleet, because they don't have as many destroyers as the USN.

If you really want the PLAN to go for a large number of up armed LCS, then you are better off not building frigates and only building destroyers, up armed LCS, and corvettes. Personally such a fleet seems to top heavy for me. The armament and capability gap between the destroyers and up armed LCS is too big, it means there are some missions where LCS is not enough in, but where a destroyer is too much in. However if you want to build a large number of LCS then you'll have to sacrifice frigate production, which would fit the gap between a destroyer and a corvette. See the dilemma? Building only a handful of frigates won't really solve anything either, because there won't be enough of them to go around to be really effective, and a small production run means higher individual unit cost, meaning you're probably better off mass producing more 052Ds or 055s instead.

I think the PLAN should not copy the USN surface combatant fleet structure and seek a more balanced navy instead.
 
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Lethe

Captain
I think a smaller LCS-type vessel, 2000-2500 tons, could make a good successor to 056, replacing older small craft like Type 022 and complementing future large 5000+ ton frigates.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
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I think a smaller LCS-type vessel, somewhere in the vicinity of 2500 tons, could make a good successor/replacement to the Type 022 and 056 in future, complementing future large 5000+ ton frigates.

I agree with this. Something multiple hundred tons than C28A, basically using similar 056 armament but having a full helicopter hangar and longer endurance, would be a relatively inexpensive ship that isn't too big or capable or expensive to cut into frigate production, but with enough range to patrol deeper into the western pacific.
 

joshuatree

Captain
I think a smaller LCS-type vessel, 2000-2500 tons, could make a good successor to 056, replacing older small craft like Type 022 and complementing future large 5000+ ton frigates.

I wouldn't say the type 022 is old just yet, plus their role is quite different, not anywhere near blue water ops. A 2000-2500 ton vessel would probably be a good replacement for the 053H1G, 053H2G and 053H3s when their service life comes to a close, that's 20 hulls right there. Imagine a few units built specifically for special op forces. A few ASW versions to augment the 056s operating in an area. A few minesweeping versions as well. That's it, anything above will be covered by the frigates 054A, etc. Anything below (meaning less than blue water), you got the 056 and its variations.

As for mission modules, the concept can be hashed out but it's not cheap and in my opinion, ill-suited to PLAN's need. A multi-use vessel with mission modules may make sense for a modern small navy that doesn't have the budget for fleet numbers or for a hyper large navy like the USN that already has 60+ and counting front line destroyers and uses these vessels as merely an augment. Even then, the USN intends to purchase a large number in order to make the unit cost palatable. Indirectly, a smaller navy could probably only afford them by attaching themselves as a partner to such project to be able to procure units at that cost. For PLAN, it be far cheaper to simply build two/three variations of a 2000-2500 ton vessel for LCS-type operations instead.

Lastly, let's not forget the USN's strategy involves a lot of partner navies to divvy up the tasks. It primarily focuses on major blue water ops. PLAN is not operating in the same manner.
 
If you really want the PLAN to patrol the western pacific during times of high tension and let your ships survive, then what you want is frigates...

Ah, we're tallking about totally different scenarios. This entire time I am talking about a ship for within the first island chain to reinforce 056's and lead 022's when things get hot to keep it a no-go zone for hostiles.

Since there are so many variations of the LCS it can get confusing as an example, I will go back to using the Tuo River instead. I think the PLAN can use a cross between the Tuo River and the 054A for the job, which Jeff Head's description closely matches. It doesn't even have to be modular.

With the PLAN's current fleet I don't think it can keep the waters within the first island chain clear with just 056's, 022's, and its subs, when all parties' naval, air, and coastal defenses are taken into account. That means the 054A which is not particularly fast or stealthy, therefore not particularly survivable despite its load of naval SAMS, will have to be the additional muscle which is also a waste of its blue water capabilities.

Let's just say if there are 60 x Type 022 and 30 x Type 056, then around a dozen of this ship class should suffice.
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
I love it when we play armchair admirals. :)
My opinion is they don't need any assets at all! Lol. Why? Because the odds it it happening is slim to none. The media and certainly politicians like to sensationalize things like this but in reality I just do not foresee PRC invading Taiwan by force. The odds of it happening is maybe just slightly higher than the odds of the US invading canada by force.

Now that is not to say the pentagon has not run computer sims on the invasion of canada because they have but they have run sims on 'alien' invasions as well.
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
Also for the sake of fun discussion, at their current levels PLAN cannot win any battles at sea UNLESS it somehow manages to do a surprise attack and invasion.
PLAN simply cannot match the US 7th fleet in terms of firepower and operation experience. Throw in B2s and Raptors operating from Guam and they will have their hands full.
There are really only 2 ways PRC can achieve victory on the strategic level.

1. Obama says to Taiwan.. Sorry buddy you're on your own.
2. PLAN has to first destroy Yokosuka, Guam and Pearl Harbor which means nukes which means we're back to square one.
 
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