If you look at Chinese military doctrine of "winning localized war under the condition of informationalization," type 054A fits perfectly for such role in China's periphery. Most of the type 052C/D, 055, nuclear-powered hunter subs, and carriers are for future engagements in places like the Malacca Straight or the Indian Ocean, where Allied (and India) forces could easily cut off China's maritime oil/gas supply routes. For China's periphery, you just need a massive number of type 054A, 022 missile boats, and 056s corvettes supported by land-based/air-launched long-range AshMs for defense against Allied "Air-Sea" battle concept.
054/A FFG Thread II
- Thread starter tphuang
- Start date
Actually the PLAN is patrolling the SCS, except they are still using the 1970s Luda class destroyers and Jianghu class frigates, meaning that there's not enough 054As and 056s.
Yes 577, 17th and 576 the 19th commissioned on the same day 16 January 2015.
577 for ESF/6th Flotilla based to Dinghai-Yadangshan, 3th 054A for she
576 for NSF/10th Flot based to Lüshun, first 054A for she have also four 053H3, DDG also.
Each Flotilla receive four 054/054A.
Planned 2 others for 2015 and 2 for 2016.
Type 054A have spent far more time out on blue water missions than any of the platform you mentioned. They have 20 Type 054A now, do you see them conduct exercises with 022 and 056s or with destroyers? Have you seen them doing any kind of SCS patrols?
When did you see PLAN send Luda class destroyers to patrol south China Sea?
Type 054A is 2 to 2.5 times the displacement of Type 056. Are you saying they play the same role in PLAN? Do you know why Jianghu class frigate is used for patrolling SCS?
I think you're making a mistake, in that you're assuming all larger, longer endurance ships will be used for blue water operations whereas smaller, shorter endurance ships will be delegated to operations in the western pacific.
The truth is, if PLAN ever fights a war in the western pacific, they will want to bring everything they have into it, especially if it is against a peer rival like USN or JMSDF or both. They won't only be relying on 054As, 022s and 056s. They'll be bringing in 052C/Ds, 055s, carriers, LHAs, LPDs, SSNs and SSKs. They'll want everything there including the kitchen sink.
Sure, in theory 055, 052C/D, and carriers, etc, are meant to defend China's SLOCs and trade routes at sea, but realisticaslly, it'll be many decades until China can fight a high intensity global naval war against a peer opponent like the USN. In other words, the PLAN would be suicidal to send a CSG out into the Indian ocean against a USN taskfroce out there. The only viable way for the PLAN to fight the USN is to fight in the western pacific where China can rely on land based missiles and airpower and C4ISR to even out the odds.
In reality, I expect future PLAN CSGs in the Indian Ocean and around Africa to mostly serve as force for lower intensity operations and to defend against second tier navies that could threaten Chinese shipping. Against a first tier navy like the USN, a PLAN CSG would have no chance without the benefits of land based airpower and missiles.
As for "winning localized war under the condition of informationalization" -- there is nothing about 054A that makes it better suited to that than any other modern PLAN surface combatant. That kind of doctrine is basically advocating network centric warfare near China's borders, and in terms of maritime borders that extends to and beyond the first island chain. There is nothing stopping 052C/Ds, 055s, and carriers from operating in that area, and there is nothing that makes 054A better suited to it. Besides, what you're saying makes it sound like the PLAN is safe just using 054As, 056s, 022s and land based missiles to fight in all localized maritime wars -- including situations involving the USN or JMSDF? Hell, even in a conflict against a lower tier navy like Vietnam's, I would still feel safer if I had some destroyers and a carrier in the mix.
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And this goes back to what you said about 054A's mostly being useful for anti piracy and patrolling the SCS. Which I disagree with. For one, 054As have not patrolled SCS like Tphuang said.
But more importantly, 054As are useful in virtually any situation. They are small and flexible and cheap enough to be used in anti piracy roles, but they're armed well enough to contribute to a larger task force like a CSG or ESG. They also have enough range to do blue water missions. Sure, you need more meat in your navy's orbat if you want to put forward a more serious CSG or ESG, in which case you need 052C/Ds and 055s. But that doesn't mean 054As aren't useful. In fact I'd say they are quite important. They help build up the numbers in your taskfroce, they are small and cheap enough to play tag with submarines in ASW roles, and they have the radar and SAMs to network with the overall air defence situation.
In other words, 054A is a good multipurpose, modern frigate that can be used in a variety of low and high intensity situations at long range or endurance, that can be mass produced with good capability for how much it costs. That is why so many have been produced. It isn't because the PLAN thinks 054As will only be good for SCS patrols or anti piracy or that 054As will make up the main meat in their naval taskforce if they fight a westpac war.
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Good analysis, but why do you need big ships in China's periphery? Let's say a war broke out over the Taiwan Straight. If you send the type 055s/carrier, they will just become 21st Century Yamato/Musashi. If I were Chinese leaders, I rather engage large U.S./Japanese warships with smaller, stealthier ships (like 054A, 056, and 022) and submarines. However, I do agree with you that carriers, 055, and 052C/D are for engaging 2nd tier navies (say something like the Vietnamese Navy, but away from China's coast) away from China's periphery in times of relative peace. Nevertheless, in times of an all-out Air-Sea show off, I just think that 055s, carriers like Liaoning, and 052C/D will simply be wasted since not enough of them are constructed, so twenty years of high-sea fleet construction will just become Yamato/Musashi. Ultimately, China's large naval vessels are really for showing off prestige, but the really use ones are the smaller vessels, though many more need to be constructed. Think of Battle of Kursk, type 054A, 056, and 022 as T-34-76s, while the Arleigh Burke and Atago/Kongo DDGs as Tigers and Panthers. You really got to pit 3-4 054As against one Aegis destroyer (not to mentioned many would be lost to Virginia class subs), so many more (say 80-100, probably) would have to be constructed if China were to win a "regional localized war."
I think you completely underestimate the capabilities of 054A vs China's other warships. Until 052C joined ESF, 054A was leading ESF in most of the flotillas and exercises. Other than that, you might want to move your naval planning to be based on 21st century conditions. Aside from that, I think your statements are leading this thread to an area (warfare vs US/Japan) that we generally discourage around here.
A force of smaller ships simply do not have the firepower, the command and control capabilities, and general persistence to match a force of larger ships.
More importantly, a force that includes a variety of warships will allow them to complement each other. A carrier can provide CAP and air borne early warning for a task force. Large destroyers can provide more capable air defence radars and command capabilities over smaller destroyers and frigates, while also having more firepower as well. LHAs can provide a dedicated platform to operate from.
A combined arms unit is almost always superior to sending a force of only one type into the fray and it applies for naval warfare as well. You want your different ships to complement and assist each other.
If you really think it is a good idea to exchange 3-4 054As for a single aegis destroyer or cruiser then I must say you are being ridiculous. That kind of kill/loss rate would be unacceptable.
You ask why the PLAN would need larger ships to fight a local/westpac naval war. My question to you, is why do you think the PLAN wouldn't need such ships? Asymmetrical warfare will only take you so far, and the PLAN have reached a point where their main offensive and defensive capabilities do not lie only in asymmetrical capabilities like mines and FACs. Asymmetrical naval warfare will allow you to harass the enemy, and defend close to shore. but it won't allow you to take the battle beyond green water, which is what the PLAN is now aiming to do. Sending a massive force of only 054As against a combined opposing force made up of aegis destroyers and carriers will be suicide.
And you are very mistaken to think that the PLAN's large vessels are only for prestige. The capabilities that 055, 052C/D, and carriers all bring are vital and survivable if used in the right way. The capabilities they bring are also more important when engaging a higher tier navy like USN and JMSDF than if you're engaging a second tier navy like Vietnam's.
You seem to believe that any PLAN force that goes against JMSDF or USN will be bound to suffer massive casualties, therefore it is wise to build a large number of less capable ships. But if your massive fleet of 054As are inherently limited by their SAMs, and can't get anywhere near within firing range of enemy ships because they only have YJ-83s, then the enemy can simply keep out of range from your ship's air defences and AShMs and send fighters loaded with AShMs from carriers. And you have no long range air defence SAMs and more powerful radar to defend yourself with, you have no AEW or CAP because you have no idea. In other words, if you only have one type of vessel with limited capabilities, it won't matter how many you have, because your enemy has other vessels that directly counter your frigates.
There are some instances where massing only a single type of asset is useful, but if the PLAN want to take on USN and JMSDF, they need a combined arms approach.
Comparing Yamato/Musashi to the PLAN's 052C/Ds, 055s, and future carriers is also a mistake, because Yamato/Musashi were made irrelevant and vulnerable due IJN lacking have enough supporting capital ships to leverage the strengths of their large battleships near the end of the war. More fundamentally, aircraft carriers made large battleships obsolete as the primary offensive arm of naval taskforces, however in the modern day and into the near future, large destroyers and carriers are still the essential offensive and defensive assets of navies.
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You also seem under the impression that 052C/Ds and 055s are only going to be buitl in limited numbers. Remember, 6 052Cs have been produced and we are expecting 12 052Ds as well. That is 18 052C/Ds in total. Not a small number. We don't know how many 055s will be produced, but expectations run into the double digits. I do not expect it to be only a 3 ship affair like Zumwalt. And remember, current PLAN destroyer flotilla arrangement has about the same number of destroyers and frigates, so once the PLAN is full modernized we will likely have an equal number of modern blue water destroyers as well as frigates. That should demonstrate to you that ships like 052C/D and 055s are not going to be lacking in number.
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In any full scale conflict China will have it's hands full keeping the waters within the first island chain clear of hostiles. China's coastline is one of the most hemmed in, and I think the best successor to the 054A will be a modular LCS. Something like Taiwan's Tuo River, but larger and modular, so pretty much the original US LCS concept. These could work in conjunction with 054A's, 056's, 022's, attack subs, and land based aircraft to make the waters within the first island chain a no-go zone.