escobar
Brigadier
PLAN budget is not so big enough so that it would concentrate on building only DDGs...
054/A FFG Thread II
- Thread starter tphuang
- Start date
PLAN budget is not so big enough so that it would concentrate on building only DDGs...
We know that there are 6 052C + 4 052D under construction or under trials or commisioned allready by now. So by 2015, all 10 of them most propably will be in service.
If the frigate's number by then is (as Jeff said) 20 054A, that means that all frigate SQ's will be complete, with 4 modern frigates each SQ.
The only problem will remain the destroyer SQ's.
The 10 modern destroyers (052C/D), will cover just half of the destroyer SQ's needs for really modern ships. The other half will still be, older types ( 2 052B + 4 Sovremenny + 2 051C + 2 051 = 10 ships).
So, why to build more frigates (14-18 as Jeff suggests) when the actual need will be for only 10 more destroyers ?
As far as cost is concerned, the cost of 18 new type frigates should be in the same class with the cost of 10 destroyers. (more or less).
If there will be a need for more new type frigates (eg 054B), that need will arise after 2020 when perhaps PLAN will be more interested to export some of its own early 054A's to allied nations (as USnavy did with its Perry's) or if PLAN will add to its orbat more ships in newly formed units.
The PRC is expanding its reach, influence, and the need for it to protect what it views as its national interests.
They will need the PLAN to consist of more Frigates and Destroyers than they have historically fielded to do so.
As a result, I believe they will build both...the additional FFGs and the DDGs.
I have argued before that China should not invest in a Type 054B platform and it is far better for them to build a few additional Type 054A's and then go on to build improved versions of the Type 052C's and the larger 9000 to 10000 ton cruisers/destroyers.
This is what we know is being build or is on order as we speak.
1 Type 071
8 Type 052D
3 Type 052C
6 Type 054A
19 Type 056
This is how the PLAN surface fleet will look like in 2018 to 2020. This list is not based on speculations but based on facts that we know. But you have to keep in mind that this list is the bare minimum what we can expect as we don't know what additional orders or projects there will be between now and then. In my view you should expect a few additional ships to be added to this list by then. I think they will stick to atleast 70 large surface combatants of DDG's and FFG's.
1 Liaoning AC
4 Type 071 LPD
8 Type 052D DDG
6 Type 052C DDG
20 Type 054A FFG
2 Type 052 DDG
2 Type 052B DDG
2 Type 051C DDG
1 Type 051B DDG
2 Type 054 FFG
4 Sovremenny DDG
14 Type 053H2/3 FFG
20 Type 056 Corvettes
80 Type 022 FAC
9 Luda's and Jianghu's
Now to me that is a very powerful fleet and China should sit back and allow this fleet to do its job. And after 2020 China should commission atleast 2 or 3 Type 055 cruisers of 9000 to 10000 tons each year to replace the remaining Luda's, Jianghu's and Jiangwei's that are still in service by then. And for the rest focus on building supply and support ships and AC's, submarines and LHD's.
And also remenber that China's defense budget will keep growing in the years to come as well.
This is what we know is being build or is on order as we speak.
1 Type 071
8 Type 052D
3 Type 052C
6 Type 054A
19 Type 056
This is how the PLAN surface fleet will look like in 2018 to 2020. This list is not based on speculations but based on facts that we know. But you have to keep in mind that this list is the bare minimum what we can expect as we don't know what additional orders or projects there will be between now and then. In my view you should expect a few additional ships to be added to this list by then. I think they will stick to atleast 70 large surface combatants of DDG's and FFG's.
1 Liaoning AC
4 Type 071 LPD
8 Type 052D DDG
6 Type 052C DDG
20 Type 054A FFG
2 Type 052 DDG
2 Type 052B DDG
2 Type 051C DDG
1 Type 051B DDG
2 Type 054 FFG
4 Sovremenny DDG
14 Type 053H2/3 FFG
20 Type 056 Corvettes
80 Type 022 FAC
9 Luda's and Jianghu's
Now to me that is a very powerful fleet and China should sit back and allow this fleet to do its job. And after 2020 China should commission atleast 2 or 3 Type 055 cruisers of 9000 to 10000 tons each year to replace the remaining Luda's, Jianghu's and Jiangwei's that are still in service by then. And for the rest focus on building supply and support ships and AC's, submarines and LHD's.
And also remenber that China's defense budget will keep growing in the years to come as well.
I don't think China's defense budget will necessarily keep growing overall given the unclear direction of the global economy. The portion for procurement might even shrink as the need for a higher training tempo and retaining quality personnel takes up more of the defense budget.
Strategically and tactically for both peacetime operations and in case of war China can use more smaller ships rather than fewer larger ships. In peacetime for patrol and training personnel, in wartime for survivability and flexibility.
If China's economy chugs along well the PLAN will probably get more DDGs, if not they will probably get more FFGs. Either way I think we already expect all new ships to be more modular, equipment to be more standardized, which will allow fewer designs with truly multi-role capabilities or specialized variations.
To add to your list, I am confident that the PLAN will have one large LHD capable of launching fixed wing aircraft by 2018-2020. There would also be at least double the number of 056s, or its successor type making up the difference to a total of 40-50 OPVs.
Last edited:
I agree with what your wrote for a minimum. So the eight Type 052Ds is a good number...but I think they will, in the next 6 1/2 to 7 years, build more Type 052Ds and I believe they will standardize on that design like they have done thus far with the Type 054A. So I believe that a total of twelve of them is a very real possibility for the 2020+ time frame.
I also expect, given the age of the older FFGs and their older systems, that we will see the Type 053 continue building. They have 19 going in just 2-3 years. I expect over the next 6 1/2 to 7 to see them at least double that number...so I will call it 40.
Finally, will there be a Type 054B? We simply do not know yet. We know that there will be at least 18 Type 054A, and probably 20...though we are not for sure yet whether the last two are in fact Type 054As. They may well turn out to be Type 054Bs at this point. If they do, then we can expect more of them to be built in the next 6 1/2 to 7 years for sure. Perhaps up to 12 if these first two really represent Type 054Bs.
I also expect, that by 2020 most all of the older DDGs and FFGs will be gone.
So, given all of this, in my mind, the number of major surface combatants (I do not include the Type 022s in my numbers) becomes:
12 Type 052D DDG
06 Type 052C DDG
02 Type 052 DDG
02 Type 052B DDG
02 Type 051C DDG
04 Sovremenny DDG
12 Type 054B FFG
18 Type 054A FFG
02 Type 054 FFG
40 Type 056 Corvettes
That's a total of 100 Major Surface Action combatants.
Add to this:
01 Liaoning CV
03 + 1 more Type 071 LPD
20 Type 072 LST
You end up with 125 Major surface vessels...not counting replensihment and logistical vessels necessary to support them.
And we cannot forget the submarine fleet. Of major consequence are the newer SSks and the SSNs. The SSBNs count in there too, but we should remember that they are dedicated strategic assets and would not factor into a tactical operational consideration. By 2020, as I indicated earlier, I expect the following:
06 Type 094 SSBN
06 Type 093 SSN
02 Type 095 SSN
12 Yuan Class SSK
12 Song Class SSK
12 Kilo Class SSK
That totals 50 submarines of various types.
Add that to the 125 and your get 175 vessels.
That is a very appreciable and very realizable number. Time will tell what it actually becomes.
I must note, that if they start a new carrier this year or next (possible, particularly if it is an indegenous variety similar to the Lioaning), then you could have a second carrier ready in the 2020 time frame.
Last edited:
asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
I do not know where you are getting the numbers from, there is no 4th Type 071 LPD
Also so far there is 2 Type 052D launched with a 3rd confirmed and maybe a fourth is confirmed but I don't recall seeing it but it's pretty sure that the units 3 and 4 are nearing thier launch now so that means really we only have 4 Type 052D confirmed, if we are taking about facts then we can only speak about what we can actually see
The 3 Type 052C pennants 151-153 are in fitting out they are soon to be ready
For Type 054A the 17th unit is launched while 18th looks like another Type 054A, however the 19th and 20th might even be Type 054B we can't tell at this stage
In addition we have 10 Type 056 launched with another 10 at various stages in 4 shipyards
asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
Eh that last sentence I don't think so, there's still 4 prehistoric Ludas serving PLAN, when were they designed? Late 1960s very old but still serving
112 and 113 are almost 20 years and they just got a refit and overhaul so will be serving for easily another 10+years and the 1970s Type 053 are only now being transfered to Burma and Bangladesh
So it's very unlikely that in 2020 China will start passing on Type 054A FFG, the PN F22P can clock 30 knots so Type 054A could manage 30+knots enough for a carrier escorts, this FFG is a ocean going vessel and a good ship which is why they built so many of them
I think you have the wrong thought, they don't build ships and then build a stratedgy, first they decide the stratedgy then they work out what they need to full fill that stratedgy then you have a design before the ship is built
PLAN obviously has a stratedgy, either 2-3 Floatillas of FFG and 1-2 Floatillas of DDG per fleet, that's between 8-12 FFG and 4-8 DDG per fleet with maybe one CG in each DDG flotailla in the future, that means between 24-36 FFG and 12-24 DDG and 8-12 cruisers
So It is very unlikely the FFG construction will stop
I'm not sure where the misunderstanding is but i'm talking about the numbers of ships that still has to be commissioned ie ships we know that already exist but haven't formally join the fleet yet. Ships that are either in the dry dock on sea trial or being fitted out or simply we know that they are on order but not yet commissioned.
As for the fourth Type 071 there is a discussion page on this very forum about the fourth Type 071 and it comes with a photo of it under construction.
http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/navy/071-lpd-landing-craft-108-2576.html
I admit that the number 8 is quite contentieus since it could be 6 or 12 but 8 is the number that i most often hear.
That's the 3 Type 052C's that i'm talking about. Those 3 are still to join the PLAN fleet.
There are in total 20 Type 054A's either in commission, on sea trial or being build or fitted out and i doubt that number 20 will be Type 054B. There are now in total 14 Type 054A in service so 6 are still to join the PLAN fleet. And yes 14 because i don't believe that 550 Weifang has been commissioned yet.
That's what i'm talking about 10 being launched and 10 on order that makes 20 and since one has already being commissioned that leaves 19 still to join the fleet.
Last edited:
Well if you've been paying attention, you would know that the 4th 071 rumour has been debunked over at the 071 thread.