054/A FFG Thread II

[Dizasta1]

Not going to happen. If the PLAN builds any more 052C's, it will be building them for its own fleets. As it is, I have no doubt whatever shipyards have been involved in the building of 052C's will be shifting full time to 052D's. The previous building of both 052C and 052D types at the same time clearly indicates the PLAN wanted to push out as many ships as possible.

I disagree, given the importance that China places on having presence in the Arabian Sea. I doubt that China would have a problem is holding talks on Pakistan Navy's interest in Type-052C. Another major factor that supports the possibility that China might consider the sale of Type-052C to Pakistan, is it taking over control of Gwadar Port. China and Pakistan have been closely cooperating with the development of Gwadar Deep Water Port. This is well documented topic and has been covered by most major News Networks in Asia. In particular when the Port Authority contract with Singapore was ended, it was widely reported that China would be awarded the Port Authority contract, and it did.

Pakistan's defence review 2011-2012, highlighted the need to build-up/expand Pakistan Navy's capabilities. Like Pakistan Army and Pakistan Air Force, both of whom have engaged in Joint Military project with China. Pakistan Navy too has done the same and the F-22P is a testimony to that. So when Pakistan Navy indicates the requirement for an greater capability warship. There is every likelihood that the talks would be initiated between Pakistan and China, to work whether the possibility exists to fulfil Pakistan Navy's need for warships. The Qing Class submarine deal is another example which shows the close alliance that Pakistan and China have.

These ships are clearly not complementary to each other in any significant tactical sense, so it makes no sense to build both of these at the same time unless it was for the purpose of getting more units out.

I referred to the 052Cs complimenting the F-22Ps, not the 052Ds.

 

[Dizasta1]

Not to mention PN almost definitely do not have the funds to buy that many 052Cs...

Well I hate to break it ya buddy, but you wrong on that one. Pakistan's defence review 2011-2012, states that Pakistan Navy is to have a significant expansion, which includes Anti-Access, Area-Denial, which in particular refers to to thwarting any attempt by india to create a blockade in the Arabian Sea. This is why there is an active review of Navy assets which would be acquired to give the Pakistan Navy the capability to achieve its objectives.

Also, not to mention the fact that Pakistan Navy is to form part of the Nuclear Doctrine, providing Second-Strike capability.

So I don't think that the argument of lack of funds holds any weight here. Pakistan sacrificed a lot to become a Nuclear Power and it is inherent in the character of Pakistan to put its defence needs before other things.

I think their best deal will be to purchase fully fledged 054As instead. Very multirole, and proven service in the PLAN, with good support facilities already existing in china. Also, that ship has quite a capable SAM with the range necessary to rival the best that IN can offer (HQ-16 has 50km min, likely 70km max from that shipboard weapons magazine a month or two back).

OT a little, but I find it amazing that IN will only get its true wide area anti air warfare orientated surface combatant in the form of the kolkata class... and even then, barak 8 will only have a range of 70km for the first few years. That's much below the likes of SM-2/6, aster 30 and HQ-9 too, which a CCTV interview with a rear admiral recently revealed, has a range of 150 km.

Type-054 is an excellent Warship and may well figure in, when China and Pakistan eventually holds talks on this topic. My guess is, any likely talks being held between the two countries, would most definitely be after Pakistan's elections have concluded.

 

[Dizasta1]

There's talk of Pakistan also getting some more of the Perry Class Frigates the US will soon be decommissioning. If they do an upgrade along the order of what the Aussies did, they will be very effective vessels.

OHPs are a good platform, perhaps the reason why Pakistan showed interest in the Warship. But as Asif mentioned, the deal of upgrading the ship with our Turkish friends, fell through. And as much as American offer is tempting, it still doesn't supersede having new Warships. Longevity, maintenance costs, upgrade costs all figure in when deciding on the better option. Pakistan Navy has had a not so good early history of procuring refurbished or second-hand Warships. Which is why the F-22P, Agosta-90B and now Qing Class procurement makes sense.

 

[Mysterre]

The S-400 system consists of several different missles, it is not a single missle. The 40N6 is not designed for 10m ASCM. Your statement is definitly wrong.

I don't even know what you are arguing for. When I was talking about a SAM vs an ABM, I was referring to generic SAM's vs generic ABM's and how they are not technologically the same. Also, when referring to the S-400, clearly both Lion and myself are referring to the longest-ranged version of this system, the 40N6.

And since you pointed out that the S-400 comprises several different missiles, it seems rather hilarious of you to claim that the 40N6 is not designed for 10m ASCM, since that just further reinforces my point that a missile optimized for long range and ballistic engagements will fair poorly against traditional maneuvering, low level SAM targets and is not technologically similar to the missiles optimized to engage these targets. Even more, Lion's original claim was in fact that since China tested an exoatmospheric ABM, it was as if it somehow gets a 'freebie' with systems like the HQ-16. This is even further from a 40N6 vs 9M96 comparison because the sensors on the EKV's used in exoatmospheric engagements are different from the usual missile seekers designed to engage fighters and missiles.

 

[Blitzo]

Well I hate to break it ya buddy, but you wrong on that one. Pakistan's defence review 2011-2012, states that Pakistan Navy is to have a significant expansion, which includes Anti-Access, Area-Denial, which in particular refers to to thwarting any attempt by india to create a blockade in the Arabian Sea. This is why there is an active review of Navy assets which would be acquired to give the Pakistan Navy the capability to achieve its objectives.

Also, not to mention the fact that Pakistan Navy is to form part of the Nuclear Doctrine, providing Second-Strike capability.

So I don't think that the argument of lack of funds holds any weight here. Pakistan sacrificed a lot to become a Nuclear Power and it is inherent in the character of Pakistan to put its defence needs before other things.

Yes, we all know Pakistan would intends to signifcantly expand its navy... but whether they can afford it is one thing. And what exactly a "significant expansion" constitutes is another matter as well. Considering the ships the PN currently have, four 054As would constitute a significant expansion in capability itself.

If they were to acquire 052Cs, then it would be a quantum leap.

Semantics aside, until we hear anything credible regarding 052Cs for the PN, it is a pie in the sky

 

[nameless]

I don't even know what you are arguing for. When I was talking about a SAM vs an ABM, I was referring to generic SAM's vs generic ABM's and how they are not technologically the same. Also, when referring to the S-400, clearly both Lion and myself are referring to the longest-ranged version of this system, the 40N6.

Ok lets just assume that is what you meant.

And since you pointed out that the S-400 comprises several different missiles, it seems rather hilarious of you to claim that the 40N6 is not designed for 10m ASCM,

So you find it funny that you agree with my claim?

since that just further reinforces my point that a missile optimized for long range and ballistic engagements will fair poorly against traditional maneuvering, low level SAM targets and is not technologically similar to the missiles optimized to engage these targets.

and this

You might as well claim that since China can make DF-31A's, it must obviously be able to make S-400-type missiles. And just because you can repurpose SAM's to attack ballistic missiles does not mean you can repurpose ASAT missiles to attack fighters or cruise missiles. I would love to see someone claim that this "KSAT-1" could down a maneuvering ASCM sea-skimming at 10m altitude

You were saying that 40N6(based on what you just said) was somehow capable of doing just that thus China lacks its capability. Since you agree with me now that it is not, what is the basis of your claim that 40N6 is somekind of wonder missile that can engage 10m CMs as well as ballistic missiles?

 

[Dizasta1]

Pakistan Navy Blog response

Yes, we all know Pakistan would intends to signifcantly expand its navy... but whether they can afford it is one thing.

The 2011-2012 defence review has clearly stated that Pakistan Navy needs to establish capability to dominate the North Arabian Sea. With that in mind, all required Navy Warfare Assets to fulfil the strategic objective, were taken into account. Also, the required funds to procure these assets, have been verified and identified.

The necessary evaluations are being carried out, determining which type of Navy Warfare Assets would best suit Pakistan Navy. This is the first time in 66 years, that Pakistan Navy has been given priority, as records show, Pakistan Army and Pakistan Air Force received bulk of the defence budget. That is a significant development.

The procurement of Agosta-90Bs, F-22P Zulfiqars, FACs and Qing Class subs, are indications that the Pakistan Navy is receiving sufficient budget allocation to forge ahead with the procurement, evaluation and short-listing of Naval Warfare Assets.

And what exactly a "significant expansion" constitutes is another matter as well. Considering the ships the PN currently have, four 054As would constitute a significant expansion in capability itself.If they were to acquire 052Cs, then it would be a quantum leap.

Pakistan has a coastline stretching 500 miles from Kutch to Turbat. The North Arabian Sea comes within Pakistan's maritime territorial waters. The North Arabian Sea is adjacent to the Persian Gulf, where 20% of the world's petroleum passes through and also where Gwadar Port plays a strategic role, providing China with access to the Persian Gulf, Arabian Sea, indian Ocean and vital shipping lanes coming from Africa, where China has invested significantly in.

And as mentioned before, Pakistan sees any attempts by the enemy (india) to set-up a blockade at the edge of the Arabian Sea, as a threat to its interests. Hence the expansion of Pakistan Navy, which would be tasked with Area-Denial/Anti-Access objectives. Why do you think that Pakistan Air Force recently got the go ahead to induct the CM-400AKG Carrier-Killer missiles? Thwarting any potential naval-blockade is important to Pakistan, considering what we bore witness to, during the Iran-Iraq War in the 1980s.

Semantics aside, until we hear anything credible regarding 052Cs for the PN, it is a pie in the sky

That is exactly what I said. If you read my post, you would've seen that I was hoping Pakistan Navy would consider Type-052Cs, as an advance Warship option. China's advancement in technology allows Pakistan to detach itself from dependence on Western military hardware, since the can be embargoed/sanctioned, as has happened in the past.

Only time will tell what type of warships, which are in the deal with China!

 

[hmmwv]

I think PN should aspire to have a 056/054A combo instead of a F22P/052C combo. I actually wouldn't be surprised that Sky Dragon can be quad packed into the 054A VLS, and then upgrade the HQ16 system to 120km range. This way a 054A can pack 16 long range HQ16B, 8 rocket assisted torpedoes, and 32 Sky Dragon SAM. Of course if PN opt for an upgraded 054A then it could use the new VLS too, then the potential will be huge. IMO such ship is all PN needs to fulfill its defensive roles.

 

[timepass]

I think PN should aspire to have a 056/054A combo instead of a F22P/052C combo. I actually wouldn't be surprised that Sky Dragon can be quad packed into the 054A VLS, and then upgrade the HQ16 system to 120km range. This way a 054A can pack 16 long range HQ16B, 8 rocket assisted torpedoes, and 32 Sky Dragon SAM. Of course if PN opt for an upgraded 054A then it could use the new VLS too, then the potential will be huge. IMO such ship is all PN needs to fulfill its defensive roles.

I believe the selection of surface vessels of PN (OPV/FFG or FFG/DDG combination) depends on how subs materialized (6 - Quing class) .

Remember, PN have scraped U214 deal in favor of Quing & if Quing can fire Babur cruise missile (which actually PN is looking with their Chinese counter parts) from its tubes then I believe PN will prefer to go for OPV/FFG combination, Melguim of Turkey was on cards but since 056 came up PN have scraped that also in favor of 056.

So near future will be very interesting for PN, currently following are the PN requirements:

4 FFGs
6 OPVs or 2 more FFGs
6 SSKs

 

[Mysterre]

You were saying that 40N6(based on what you just said) was somehow capable of doing just that thus China lacks its capability. Since you agree with me now that it is not, what is the basis of your claim that 40N6 is somekind of wonder missile that can engage 10m CMs as well as ballistic missiles?

I don't see anywhere in my post (including the parts you highlighted) where I claimed the 40N6 can engage 10m altitude cruise missiles as well as ballistic missiles, if by that you mean that its chance of success vs ASCM's is the same or almost the same vs ballistic missiles. I actually think the 40N6 CAN engage sea-skimmers but is likely a very poor choice for doing so compared to say the 9M96, given its shear size and aerodynamics probably optimized for range rather than high-G turns, and possibly sensor differences as well. YOU were the one who made the much stronger claim that the 40N6 was "not designed for" 10m ASCM's, by which I assume you mean it simply cannot engage them. There is a difference between "not optimized for" and "not able to engage at all". Whereas the 40N6 is not optimized for sea-skimmers, IMO exoatmospheric ABM's like the SC-19 cannot engage sea-skimmers at all due to the different sensor package and missile body design. Regarding my generic use of "SAM's", when I used that term I was referring to generic SAM's (like the 9M96) that are optimized to engage traditional targets such as sea-skimmers and fighters. We are really talking about three systems here: ABM's, super-long range SAM's like the 40N6, and SAM's like the 9M96. IMO each is almost a completely different system, and just because you develop a successful ABM system doesn't mean you automatically have the technology and the free ride to develop any SAM, whether missiles like the 40N6 or ones like the 9M96.