054/A FFG Thread II

[xiyanz]

I am pretty sure Talwar is smaller. According to globalsecurity.org the specific dimensions of the the Talwar is as following.

Displacement 3850 tons full load
Length 124.5 m
Beam 15.2 m
Draft 4.2 m
Speed 30
Range 4600 miles @ 20 knots
1600 miles @ 30 knots
Endurance 30 days
Crew 180 (18 officers)

Now, even though we don't have an official release of the 54A's specifications, you can still use google earth to measure its dimensions. The 54A under construction at HP shipyard is roughly 133m long and 15.5m wide. BTW, Google earth measurement is VERY accurate. (Just measure any ship with known dimension.) Given that 54s are both longer and wider, we can pretty much conclude that it has a larger displacement than Talwar's 3850tons. Although someone may argue otherwise by pointing out other non-conforming data, as a general rule a naval ship with more length and width is always bigger.

Well like I said Tawlar is perfect example of ship with more stuff onboard and at the same dimensions and still noway near 5,000 tons...




Tawlar has two, Kashtans which are far heavier systems than the Type 730 in 054A.

A-190E vs. AK-176 clone, the first being about 3 tons heavier


Well roughly estimation (based on MK41 weights plus 9M38 weights) is that the 32 cell VLS would weight around 70 tons where as the 3S90 launcher (In Tawlar) with it's missiles weights more than 90 tons.



Tawlar has 8 Klub's which weight being around 1,500 Kg per missiles where as 054A has 8 Yj-83 which each missile weighting around 700-800 Kg.

Add to that Tawlar carriers the RBU-6000 system whit it's reload gear. The sensorsuite in overall is strikingly similar in both vessels. So what exactly has 054A eaten so it would so much heavier? Note that all the "super-frigates" of today which are over 5000 ton displacement are also considerably longer and beamier than 054 series.

PS. Absalon is a combat support ship, Transport ship with front line armament and sensorsuite.

 

[tphuang]

any chance of the tpye 54 on the export market? i see a killing that could be made with that ship

well, it has to fight against all the export versions of FREMM, LCS, MEKO family among others. Of course, 054A series has a significant price advantage against any of those series (although export premium will reduce that advantage a little bit), Here are some pictures of the new 054A in HD shipyard.

 

[crobato]

Well like I said Tawlar is perfect example of ship with more stuff onboard and at the same dimensions and still noway near 5,000 tons...




Tawlar has two, Kashtans which are far heavier systems than the Type 730 in 054A.

I doubt that. The Type 730 has features over the Kashtan, such as electro-optical device. The radar set up is an inverse cassegrain using polarizers, which is better and heavier than the parabolic setup used on the Kashtan.

Bandstand/Mineral ME also appears bigger than Garpun. Both ships have Fregats, but the Type 054A also has the Type 364 on the second mast.

Well roughly estimation (based on MK41 weights plus 9M38 weights) is that the 32 cell VLS would weight around 70 tons where as the 3S90 launcher (In Tawlar) with it's missiles weights more than 90 tons.

That's a gross overestimation. You got a hot launched VLS with 32 missiles each approximately around 700kg each, vs. a cold launched VLS with 8 missiles approximately 1500kg each. That's over 22 tons vs. 12 tons.

Furthermore the 3S19 launcher, unlike the rotary cold launched systems, is surprisingly compact. It lacks the ducts and channels needed for hot launches. It does not have to make as much considerations for exhaust mass flow from the missile or the heat shielding necesssary.

Tawlar has 8 Klub's which weight being around 1,500 Kg per missiles where as 054A has 8 Yj-83 which each missile weighting around 700-800 Kg.

That's only how a YJ-83 weighs when it is air launched without its booster. With its cartridge, each YJ-83 weighs like 1000kg.

Add to that Tawlar carriers the RBU-6000 system whit it's reload gear. The sensorsuite in overall is strikingly similar in both vessels. So what exactly has 054A eaten so it would so much heavier? Note that all the "super-frigates" of today which are over 5000 ton displacement are also considerably longer and beamier than 054 series.

PS. Absalon is a combat support ship, Transport ship with front line armament and sensorsuite.

Define beamier. It seems that the 054A has a length of 133 meters. That's more than the Talwar class at 125 meters. As for beam, its 17 meters for the 054A vs. 15 meters for the Talwar class.


The 054 carries not one, but appears to be two RBUs on the rear.

Absalon has all the front line armament of a modern frigate. It can be considered a frigate and a littoral support ship at the same time.

To put things in another way, if an HQ-16 is roughly like a Shtil, you're looking at a 700kg missile. That's also about the same weight of a Standard SM-2.

To put everything in perspective, the SAMs by their respective weights.

Croatale/HQ-7 = 86kg
Sea Sparrow = 220 to 280kg
ESSM = 280kg
Aster 15 = 301kg
Standard SM-2 = approx 700kg
Shtil/Buk = 680 to 700kg.
S300 = 1400kg +

If you look at all the specs of different ships, you are going to have a very difficult time to find a ship under 5000mt, much less 4000mt that has 32 700kg SAMs on a matching hot launched VLS like the Mk.41. Then add two CIWS and so on. Now tell me, and look for me what is the lightest ship that has a 32 cel MK.41 loaded with Standards, not Sea Sparrows.

Even the 052C and 051C might also be underestimated. You're talking about two classes of ships whose missile weight is approximately similar to 96 SM-2s. While the 052C also carries 8 long range YJ-62s that approximately may weigh around 1800 to 2000kg each.

 

[xiyanz]

I doubt that. The Type 730 has features over the Kashtan, such as electro-optical device. The radar set up is an inverse cassegrain using polarizers, which is better and heavier than the parabolic setup used on the Kashtan.

Bandstand/Mineral ME also appears bigger than Garpun. Both ships have Fregats, but the Type 054A also has the Type 364 on the second mast.





That's a gross overestimation. You got a hot launched VLS with 32 missiles each approximately around 700kg each, vs. a cold launched VLS with 8 missiles approximately 1500kg each. That's over 22 tons vs. 12 tons.

Furthermore the 3S19 launcher, unlike the rotary cold launched systems, is surprisingly compact. It lacks the ducts and channels needed for hot launches. It does not have to make as much considerations for exhaust mass flow from the missile or the heat shielding necesssary.




That's only how a YJ-83 weighs when it is air launched without its booster. With its cartridge, each YJ-83 weighs like 1000kg.



Define beamier. It seems that the 054A has a length of 133 meters. That's more than the Talwar class at 125 meters. As for beam, its 17 meters for the 054A vs. 15 meters for the Talwar class.


The 054 carries not one, but appears to be two RBUs on the rear.

Absalon has all the front line armament of a modern frigate. It can be considered a frigate and a littoral support ship at the same time.

To put things in another way, if an HQ-16 is roughly like a Shtil, you're looking at a 700kg missile. That's also about the same weight of a Standard SM-2.

To put everything in perspective, the SAMs by their respective weights.

Croatale/HQ-7 = 86kg
Sea Sparrow = 220 to 280kg
ESSM = 280kg
Aster 15 = 301kg
Standard SM-2 = approx 700kg
Shtil/Buk = 680 to 700kg.
S300 = 1400kg +

If you look at all the specs of different ships, you are going to have a very difficult time to find a ship under 5000mt, much less 4000mt that has 32 700kg SAMs on a matching hot launched VLS like the Mk.41. Then add two CIWS and so on. Now tell me, and look for me what is the lightest ship that has a 32 cel MK.41 loaded with Standards, not Sea Sparrows.

Even the 052C and 051C might also be underestimated. You're talking about two classes of ships whose missile weight is approximately similar to 96 SM-2s. While the 052C also carries 8 long range YJ-62s that approximately may weigh around 1800 to 2000kg each.

No offense, but I don't know why you guys even waste time arguing over how much each missile weighs. IT DOES NOT MAKE MUCH DIFFERENCE! Even if Talwar has 100 missiles that weighs 1 ton more EACH. That only accounts for 100 Tons. That's it. It's all about the ships's size. Please look over my previous post on the dimensions of each ship.

 

[Engineer]

So, is the 054's hull armored or is the ship built with thin metal plates?

 

[crobato]

No offense, but I don't know why you guys even waste time arguing over how much each missile weighs. IT DOES NOT MAKE MUCH DIFFERENCE! Even if Talwar has 100 missiles that weighs 1 ton more EACH. That only accounts for 100 Tons. That's it. It's all about the ships's size. Please look over my previous post on the dimensions of each ship.

Because weight has a cascading effect. To give you an idea, let's take a car.

Lets put a heavier engine on it. Because of the increased weight in the front, you have to counter that with bigger brakes. The bigger brakes add more weight to themselves. To counter the combined increased weight, you need bigger antisway bars in your suspension. More weight. You need bigger springs. More weight. You need to change your transmission and axle ratios. More weight. An exhaust system with more flow. More weight. Need a bigger fuel tank to go with it. More weight. Bigger cranking motor. More weight. And a bigger cranking motor leads to a bigger battery. More weight.

And this is also not just about weight. Its also about volume. Since we're all really talking about ship displacement. The 054A's VLS system will definitely take more volume than the Klub's, because of the vents, channels and ducts that is used to route the exhaust gases from the just fired missile as it lifts off. On the Klub VLS, a cold gas container will simply pop the missile out of the tube, where it would ignite midair.

Any VLS system will take far more weight and volume than a siimple rail launcher.

So you get the idea, weight and volume has a cascading effect. It affects aircraft too by the way.

 

[xiyanz]

Because weight has a cascading effect. To give you an idea, let's take a car.

Lets put a heavier engine on it. Because of the increased weight in the front, you have to counter that with bigger brakes. The bigger brakes add more weight to themselves. To counter the combined increased weight, you need bigger antisway bars in your suspension. More weight. You need bigger springs. More weight. You need to change your transmission and axle ratios. More weight. An exhaust system with more flow. More weight. Need a bigger fuel tank to go with it. More weight. Bigger cranking motor. More weight. And a bigger cranking motor leads to a bigger battery. More weight.

And this is also not just about weight. Its also about volume. Since we're all really talking about ship displacement. The 054A's VLS system will definitely take more volume than the Klub's, because of the vents, channels and ducts that is used to route the exhaust gases from the just fired missile as it lifts off. On the Klub VLS, a cold gas container will simply pop the missile out of the tube, where it would ignite midair.

Any VLS system will take far more weight and volume than a siimple rail launcher.

So you get the idea, weight and volume has a cascading effect. It affects aircraft too by the way.

But It still does not matter that much in this case. With the example that I gave you, there is only at most 100 tons (probable a lot less, more like 30 tons) of extra weight. Compare to 4000 tons of displacement that very negligent. That's like redesigning a car ONLY BECAUSE IT CARRIES AN EXTRA 50LBS OF WEIGHT.

Also please note that I am actually arguing your position. I also think 054A is bigger than Talwar. Except that I am taking a different approach.

 

[Gollevainen]

Well first of all counting stuff from Google earth isen't very accurate. If you do meassuring from air you need to "level-projection" (Don't know the exact proper english term for it) the image, eg. to take under consideration of the arc of the globe so to speak. Even with normal aerial surveing from air you still may have several meters differences. My experiences with using Google earths meassuring is somewhat similar. In Helsinki there is a test range for aerial photographig-calibration...you can all go there and meassure it's lenght by google earth and see just how accurate lenghts it gives (I try to dig up the co-ordinates later when I get to my computer)

I agree on Xiyang that ship with bigger dimensions has bigger displacement in most cases and in 054 that is propably correct. But like said we still don't know the exact dimensions. Still even if the, IMO overestimated dimensions proofs out to be accurate it still wouldn't justificate over 5000 ton displacement.

Why I brought the Tawlar example is to show that the 054 doesen't actually have anyway remarkably heavier system fits.

I doubt that. The Type 730 has features over the Kashtan, such as electro-optical device. The radar set up is an inverse cassegrain using polarizers, which is better and heavier than the parabolic setup used on the Kashtan.

Each Kashtan module weights around 15,500 tons. Exact weight on Type 730 is not known but for references Goalkeeper weights around 6,000 tons each...

Bandstand/Mineral ME also appears bigger than Garpun. Both ships have Fregats, but the Type 054A also has the Type 364 on the second mast

.

Tawlar has similar role, similar size to type 364, the Positive-E atop its hangar.

Of the VLS weight, I used the fully packed 32 cells of MK.41 as a reference which should be similar system to the VLS in 054A, and I still couldn't get it by any means heavier than 70 tons. The single arm launcher for Shtill in Tawlar weights over 90 tons however.

 

[SteelBird]

Each Kashtan module weights around 15,500 tons. Exact weight on Type 730 is not known but for references Goalkeeper weights around 6,000 tons each...

Did you mean kilogram?

 

[crobato]

The Positive E is not the same as the the Type 364. For that matter, this radar, which I would rather call Garpun, works much like the Bandstand/Mineral ME, which the 054A has, is bigger, and which the Talwar doesn't. To put it simply the 054A has a second mast than the Talwar and both masts appear taller.

I'm not sure how the rail launcher used on the Shtil should weigh more than a VLS launcher.

So have you found a ship with Mk 41 VLS and 32 Standards? And no, not Sea Sparrows or ESSMs. Just Standards. The closest I got was the KDX-II from S. Korea, and that's over 4700 mt. Next to that is the Nansen class though using the ESSM for 32 missiles, which is 5100mt. It should be noted that the dimensions of the Nansen is about 133 meters in length, and close to 17 meters in beam.