054/A FFG Thread II

[Gollevainen]

Did you mean kilogram?

Nope tons, tough the , was for decimal seperation. Just to be clear, Kasthan weights 15 500 kg eg. 15.5 tons and Goalkeeper 6 000 kg eg. 6 tons.

The Positive E is not the same as the the Type 364. For that matter, this radar, which I would rather call Garpun, works much like the Bandstand/Mineral ME, which the 054A has, is bigger, and which the Talwar doesn't. To put it simply the 054A has a second mast than the Talwar and both masts appear taller.

Positive E is the radar inside the radome atop Tawlar's hangar. It's associated to the Kashtan system and is by physically and operationally very similar to the Type 364 atop the mainmast (means the mast in the middle of the ship) of 054A.

For the SAM targetting is done in 054A the Mineral system fitted inside the Bandstand radome and in Tawlar it's done by the Garpun fitted in similar position atop the bridge as in 054A but it doesen't have the Radome. These systems are not the same and indeed Mineral is larger and slightly heavier system. Still it's not enough to chang eth ebalance so to speak.

I'm not sure how the rail launcher used on the Shtil should weigh more than a VLS launcher.

Well it does. Remember that unlike VLS system being it hot or cold lauched, tradditional SAM launchers has extensive hydraulical systems for rotating the caruscel missile magasine, hoist the missiles to the launcher, train and elevate the launcher and so on. And that weights alot more than ventilation pipes...

So have you found a ship with Mk 41 VLS and 32 Standards? And no, not Sea Sparrows or ESSMs. Just Standards. The closest I got was the KDX-II from S. Korea, and that's over 4700 mt. Next to that is the Nansen class though using the ESSM for 32 missiles, which is 5100mt. It should be noted that the dimensions of the Nansen is about 133 meters in length, and close to 17 meters in beam.

The numbers of some certain missile systems sholdn't be the determination of how much some ship's displacement should be. By that logic if you were to determine what is the displacement of Bora class missile SES by counting the numbers of Moskit's onboard you would get well over 6000 tons becouse other corresponding ships with 4 Moskits are over that displacement.

KDX-II is a Destroyer and far larger than 054A. Nansen may be roughly in the same size gathergory as the 054A, but it has far more extensive and volumeous system fit (Aegis among others) than in 054A. For comparison, Formidable which has similar propulsion arragment as in 054A and 32 VLS cell of Aster-15 is tough with smaller dimensions only barely over 3 000 tons.

By maxium 054A is 4 500 tons full load but it's not over 5 000 tons.

 

[crobato]

Nope tons, tough the , was for decimal seperation. Just to be clear, Kasthan weights 15 500 kg eg. 15.5 tons and Goalkeeper 6 000 kg eg. 6 tons.



Positive E is the radar inside the radome atop Tawlar's hangar. It's associated to the Kashtan system and is by physically and operationally very similar to the Type 364 atop the mainmast (means the mast in the middle of the ship) of 054A.

For the SAM targetting is done in 054A the Mineral system fitted inside the Bandstand radome and in Tawlar it's done by the Garpun fitted in similar position atop the bridge as in 054A but it doesen't have the Radome. These systems are not the same and indeed Mineral is larger and slightly heavier system. Still it's not enough to chang eth ebalance so to speak.

But it does. The Garpun is only fitted on smaller ships; corvettes and frigates in fact.

The Bandstand/Mineral radar has only been fitted on ships classified as destroyers in the SU. Never on a frigate or corvette.

Add the fact that you got two tall masts in the 054A.


Furthermore, looking at this,

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There is no indication that you have Positiv-E on the ship.

BR forgot about this? They certainly didn't when that radar is mentioned along with this ship.

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No hit on the wiki either.

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In fact, nothing on the google and yahoo search pages.

I can't say the Talwar class has the Positiv-E.

Well it does. Remember that unlike VLS system being it hot or cold lauched, tradditional SAM launchers has extensive hydraulical systems for rotating the caruscel missile magasine, hoist the missiles to the launcher, train and elevate the launcher and so on. And that weights alot more than ventilation pipes...

Ah, but that's still one launcher, vs. 32 different tubes. And these tubes have to be blast and heat reinforced. Sorry, but channels meant to route rocket flow aren't mere ventilation pipes.

The numbers of some certain missile systems sholdn't be the determination of how much some ship's displacement should be. By that logic if you were to determine what is the displacement of Bora class missile SES by counting the numbers of Moskit's onboard you would get well over 6000 tons becouse other corresponding ships with 4 Moskits are over that displacement.

No but you can extract a pattern that shows the general specifications and parameters for ships that carry those missiles along with other equipment.

KDX-II is a Destroyer and far larger than 054A. Nansen may be roughly in the same size gathergory as the 054A, but it has far more extensive and volumeous system fit (Aegis among others) than in 054A.

The KDX-II is a ship fairly based on the Oliver Perry. It may use Standards and the Mk. 41 VLS but the radar systems are not AEGIS. The Nansens well, they use the "frigate" version of the SPY-1.

For comparison, Formidable which has similar propulsion arragment as in 054A and 32 VLS cell of Aster-15 is tough with smaller dimensions only barely over 3 000 tons.

And something is very wrong with that quote. Since the very similar hulled and equipped Al Riyadh class is weighted at 4700mt.

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Again, its questionable that the Formidable is that light, considering its lighter than the La Fayette which it is founded on, and yet the LF has less equipment and makes much more use of weight lightening materials like composites on the superstructure, while the Formidable class uses steel.

As for the Google Earth, this is a very well known program and it is used by professionals like those involved in surveying and real estate. If there were in accuracies, they would have been accounted for long ago and GE has had many successive versions after that. Aberrations caused by earth curvature can easily be compensated in software.

In my experience using GE, there is no way you can make a mistake between a 124 meter vessel from a 133 meter one.

 

[Gollevainen]

But it does. The Garpun is only fitted on smaller ships; corvettes and frigates in fact.

The Bandstand/Mineral radar has only been fitted on ships classified as destroyers in the SU. Never on a frigate or corvette.

Add the fact that you got two tall masts in the 054A.


Furthermore, looking at this,

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There is no indication that you have Positiv-E on the ship.

BR forgot about this? They certainly didn't when that radar is mentioned along with this ship.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

No hit on the wiki either.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

In fact, nothing on the google and yahoo search pages.

I can't say the Talwar class has the Positiv-E.

Well if some stuff is left out in western internetpages it doesen't mean it's not there...Let's not ridicule ourselves..

Here is a picture of Tawlar's bridge. The radar inside the red circle is Garpun

And here is a picture of Tawlar's hangar. Atop inside the red circle is the Positive-E radar.

Ah, but that's still one launcher, vs. 32 different tubes. And these tubes have to be blast and heat reinforced. Sorry, but channels meant to route rocket flow aren't mere ventilation pipes

Yeas it's a single huge complex which holds aside it's own deathweight, 24 Shtill missiles. It has 8 missiles less than in the 054As VLS but still the weight of the whole system is over 90tons (according to Norman Friedmans book of armaments). The stuff used to divert the rocket fumes out in Hot launched VLS systems is still not as extensive as the hydraulic and mechanical gear which operates the tradditional SAM launchers. Hence the bigger weight.

The KDX-II is a ship fairly based on the Oliver Perry. It may use Standards and the Mk. 41 VLS but the radar systems are not AEGIS. The Nansens well, they use the "frigate" version of the SPY-1.

KDX-II is not based on OHP, it's more properly enlargened version of the orginal KDX-I. KDX-II is 150 meter long and has displacement of around 5 500 tons.

Of Formidable, all sources that I found gave the 3 200 ton displacement but you are right that the same sources gives the Al Riadh over 4 000 ton diplacement. Displacement seems to be however a dimension that varies alot with the same ship but different reference.

As for the Google Earth, this is a very well known program and it is used by professionals like those involved in surveying and real estate. If there were in accuracies, they would have been accounted for long ago and GE has had many successive versions after that. Aberrations caused by earth curvature can easily be compensated in software.

Well surveing is part of my studies and my brother is a Survey engineer so I can assure you that GE is not accurate enough tool to determine distances from A to B other than in broad scale. In survey work it's completely insufficient. My brother actually laughted at me when I suggested GE to be used as a survey tool. The variations of the systems are such too huge. It's a good software and very usefull just like GPS based car navigators...but in proffesional survey work you need little bit heavier tools.

I did give it a go however and meassured some lenghts of warships that I could found. I first went to Severomorsk and meassured the lenght of Slava clas RKR. I got 189.5 meters and 190 meters results (did it twice as the image was too blurry so it was hard to focus the ruler). The real lenght of Slava is 186 meters. Aside it was Petr Velikiy and as for it I got 253.2 meters. Real lenght is 252 meters so it was quite close. But then I went to Severodvinsk where the two sisters of Petr Velikiy are. For both I got 249 meters.

So yeas you can have mistakes with GE...But my point isen't that. 054A may well be 130-133 meter long. It still however doesen't justificate over 5 000 ton displacement.

 

[yehe]

I seriously doubt that the 054A could be larger than 5000tons, not even close, considering the power system it uses. Even the 052C DDG is only 5850ton.

 

[xiyanz]

I seriously doubt that the 054A could be larger than 5000tons, not even close, considering the power system it uses. Even the 052C DDG is only 5850ton.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think that 54/A is over 5000tons. I am just trying to say that 054/A is bigger than Talwar which is known to be 3900/4000tons. Sinodence listed 054A at 4500tons which I think is fairly justified by comparing its dimension to Talwar if Talwar is indeed close to 4000tons.

 

[Pointblank]

Again, its questionable that the Formidable is that light, considering its lighter than the La Fayette which it is founded on, and yet the LF has less equipment and makes much more use of weight lightening materials like composites on the superstructure, while the Formidable class uses steel.

As for the Google Earth, this is a very well known program and it is used by professionals like those involved in surveying and real estate. If there were in accuracies, they would have been accounted for long ago and GE has had many successive versions after that. Aberrations caused by earth curvature can easily be compensated in software.

In my experience using GE, there is no way you can make a mistake between a 124 meter vessel from a 133 meter one.

I believe the difference in weight comes from the fact that the Formidable class frigates have a significantly cut down upper deck, and is the smallest of the La Fayette designs.

 

[Gollevainen]

Don't get me wrong. I don't think that 54/A is over 5000tons. I am just trying to say that 054/A is bigger than Talwar which is known to be 3900/4000tons. Sinodence listed 054A at 4500tons which I think is fairly justified by comparing its dimension to Talwar if Talwar is indeed close to 4000tons.

Well I think none is saying that Tawlar would be bigger. The reason why I brought it up was that as the oversized displacement of 054A was justificated by the "sheer number of heavy equipment onboard". With Tawlar I tryed to demonstrate that a ship with far smaller displacement than this alledged displacement of 054A actually had more heavier weaponsystems onboard.

 

[Jeff Head]

Well I think none is saying that Tawlar would be bigger. The reason why I brought it up was that as the oversized displacement of 054A was justificated by the "sheer number of heavy equipment onboard". With Tawlar I tryed to demonstrate that a ship with far smaller displacement than this alledged displacement of 054A actually had more heavier weaponsystems onboard.

Very good discussion reagrding the relative displacements and weapons systems. Smaller vessels can be fitted with heavier systems.

I believe the 054A is a good design with an overall balanced weapons fit and that it has the room and wherewithall to accomodate upgrades that extend its service life. I also believe it will be capable of true blue-water operations as necessary.

I believe the PLAN still needs to make progress in certain areas to ensure this (ie. sonar, effective ASW helos, etc.), but that they have a good platform in the 054A to allow for it in FFG design.

Time will tell if all of these things are true.

 

[adeptitus]

If an Absalon is not a frigate what it is anyway? The term frigate is used liberally depending your point of view. Technically, in the USN, frigate was used to denote DL or Destroyer Leader which should be cruiser.

The Absalon is a multi-purpose command and support ship that's designed and built specifically to join multi-national missions abroad. This is a rather interesting post-Cold War concept and the Danes caught up to it quicker than everyone else.

Personally, I'm a big fan of this ship. At the cost of $218.5 million each, you're getting twice the tonnage at half the price of an over-priced LCS. For a Western-European built warship, it's a great bargain and export potential to small and medium sized navies abroad.

The Danes are happy enough with the design, to order 3 AAW Frigates based on the Absalon class. But for the purpose of this discussion, the tonnage would exceed your comparison target (to 054A class).

Goll, feel free to point out another frigate under 5000 mt that has to have these:
2 CIWS guns
1 naval gun
32 cel VLS for medium ranged SAMs
8 AshMs
Much less under 4000mt.
Then I will believe you.

With exception to the CIWS requirement, I think Singapore's Formidable Class come close to fitting your requirement. It's the only La Fayette class variant with 32-cel VLS, and full load displacement is quoted at 3,200 tons. If you really, really wanted to, you could probably bolt on a couple CIWS systems without adding too much weight.

I think someone mentioned Neustrashimy class earlier... the Russians pack way too much munitions on their ships and is probably not a good modern design to compare to.

Well actually 054/A is no way remarkably more heavier or larger than any counterpory frigates. It is big frigate, well over 3,000 tons displacement, but those 4,000-5,000 ton numbers are hugely over-estimations. Lenghtwisely the ships are about 125-130 meters which alse correspond other frigates around the world.

For frigates in current service, yes. But compared to newer/up-coming frigates, there's a "creeping" toward larger and larger displacement/tonnage. The F-100, F-125, Sachsen, Fridtjof Nansen, etc. are all well above 5,000 ton displacement.

 

[antiterror13]

No offense, but I don't know why you guys even waste time arguing over how much each missile weighs. IT DOES NOT MAKE MUCH DIFFERENCE! Even if Talwar has 100 missiles that weighs 1 ton more EACH. That only accounts for 100 Tons. That's it. It's all about the ships's size. Please look over my previous post on the dimensions of each ship.

obviously you don't know anything about ship design, do you ?