054/A FFG Thread II
- Thread starter tphuang
- Start date
plawolf
Lieutenant General
I wonder what the future upgrade potential for the 054 would be. The raised deck just before the bridge would present some problems in fitting 054A style VLS on them. Although, ironically, the extra height this gives could potentially allow them to be modified to carry a much deeper VLS, maybe something similar to the strike depth Mark41, to allow them to carry a bigger variety of missiles, like VLS cruise missiles or even HQ9 ranged missiles.
The other, easier option would be put in 052B style arm launchers for HQ16s on them to bring them at least to the same level as the 054As in terms of missile range.
Such an upgrade 054+ might be of interest to Pakistan, especially if China was willing to offer them a good deal on account of them being used ships.
there is a lot of work that needs to be done to get it to be able to launch HQ-16s. There really isn't any point when they can build new ones so cheaply. The 054s right now do a good job in the ASW role for ESF.
asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
PN would certainly be interested in acquiring new frigates in the range of the Type 054 and actually even stated that they are looking for a follow on to he F22P frigates, commonly referred to as the F23P class, which will sit somewhere between the F22Ps and Type 054As, so making Type 054 ideal choice
as to what weapons it will take that is up to PN requirments which we already know, maybe even getting new built ones with stealth design from Type 054A and having custom built weapons on them wouldnt be a bad idea, cus now PNs next ship will have stealth, if we can manage 4 new frigates for under $1 billion that is not a bad price
This would give PN 4 F22Ps, 4 F23Ps in addition to 6 Oliver Perry Class frigates with the retirement of the 6 Type 21 frigates, total 14 advanced frigates not a bad surface fleet
plawolf
Lieutenant General
Would adding decent ranged VLS or arm launcher SAMs remove the ASW capabilities of them?
Yes, I am aware that the mods I have suggested would require quite extensive work and a lot of time out. But as cheaply as China can build new 054As, it is still only going to cost a fraction of a new build hull to make even the most extensive mods I suggested.
Since the PLAN already paid the lion share for the hull already, it seems to be a good investment to spend a little more to bring these ships up to fully 054A standard, or even beyond. If they did this during the ships' mid life refit, it wouldn't take them out of service that much longer than they would have been out for anyways.
The HQ7s service a nice last-line-of-defense role for missiles at present, but that function could be taken on just as effectively as the FL2000 now that that is becoming operational, so it really seems like a bit of a waste that something as large as an 054 would only have the AA capabilities of something like an 056.
Why choose between ASW and AAW when you can have both?
Right now PLAN is not facing an imminent danger of war so as long as 054 fulfills its mission there is not need for the costly conversion, they might as well use up the HHQ7's service life and do the conversion at mid life overhaul. Another aspect is that PLAN is desperately short of active ships right now, that kind of conversion will take those two out of service for a year or so, compromising PLAN's capabilities. Also I very much doubt China has enough HQ16s to fill the existing VLS cells in 054As anyway.
antiterror13
Brigadier
Not enough HQ16 ? .... is that hard to produce the missile ? .... developing it may be very hard, once the design is approved and accepted, and the master the manufacturing process (which is China is excellent) .. it is only a matter of $$$$ really
054 only has the AA capabilities of something like an 056? Have you thought about the combat system, sensors, close in weapon systems, the decoy launchers, extra operators and things like that?
HQ-16 is not a stand alone system. Think about the deck penetration of the HQ-16 vs HHQ-7? What would you have to change inside the ship as a result of that? I haven't seen a naval version of non-VLS HQ-16, but I'd imagine the reloaders and the weight of HQ-16 system will different from that of HHQ-7. Think about the extra sensors that accompany HQ-16 that would have to be installed on 054 and how that might affect the sea-worthiness of 054. If you upgrade HQ-16, you'd have to think about upgrading the other parts of the AAW suite too. So, what structural changes would be required to replace AK-630 (which requires no deck penetration) with Type 730 (which does have deck penetration). On top of this, you probably have to make changes to combat system, wiring, power systems inside the ship. This is not a cheap change. Look at all of the time 112 and 113 spent in the dry docks and it still could not even get HQ-10 installed let alone HQ-16
plawolf
Lieutenant General
In terms of function, the HQ7 is effectively a point defence missile the same as the HQ10. The HQ7 has more range and a bigger warhead, but they are still only going to be shooting at incoming missiles as there is no way the HQ7 can hit a fighter unless it was trying to kamikaze you.
If the 054 has a comprehansive sensor and AA battle management suit in place or has the provisions for one, than that is even more reason to upgrade the missile so those systems and sensors could be put to best use instead of being limited by the range of the HQ7.
All good points, and all things the shipyard would have had to resolve when they developed the 054 design into the 054A. All that work had already been done, and based on the relatively short time between the 054 and 054A designs, chances as the mods were not too extensive or comprehensive. There is even the possibility that the 054 themselves were designed with VLS in mind, but had to make do with HQ7s because the HQ16 was not ready in time. If that was the case, then there is a good chance that the internal structure was designed to allow for a retrofit of VLS at a later date.
Why is CIWS tied to missile choice? If adding the Type 730 would require too much work, then just stick with the AKs. It's not like the choice of missile has to be tied to CISW. And funny you should being in 112 and 113, if it was possible to retrofit 730s onto them, then there really shouldn't be that big of a problem doing the same with the 054s.
That is why I suggested the mid-life overhaul as a good time to consider this upgrade, as by that time, all the wiring and sensors would need replacing anyways.
You already have ready-made blue prints for turning 054s into 054As. Granted it will be harder to upgrade existing ships than to build the new design from scratch, but there is a pretty good chance that it can be done, especially if the original 054 design had provisions for VLS.
Even if they didn't the designers would have wanted to minimise the changes they would have had to make to the 054 design to turn them into 054As on the 'if it isn't broke, don't fix it' principle. Which increase the chances of such an upgrade being possible.
Well the 112 and 113 hulls were never designed with VLS in mind, and if they wanted to put in VLS, they would have had to come up with a revised design from scratch. Such a design is already readily available for the 054, and has been demonstrated as perfectly feasible by the 054A.
As for the decision to keep HQ7s, well didn't you yourself suggest that that was more for logistical reasons on account of the PLAN still having a large stock of HQ7s?
There is absolutely no technical issues that I can see that would stop the PLAN putting HQ10s on 112 an 113 in place of the HQ7s if they really wanted to.