This is not representative. Bonhomme Richard burnt out as good without composites.
052C/052D Class Destroyers
- Thread starter Jeff Head
- Start date
Thanks for the transcript!
It seems to me Xavier's observations are adequately explained by what Rick Joe said, which is that Xavier has not actually "toured" the ship so much as a particular corridor located in a part of the ship without much watertight needs.
But there seems to be a second person in the podcast affiliated with the USN who use what Xavier said to push a number of quite absurd generalizations about PLAN ships in general or PLAN doctrine. This include a great deal of coping, too. Of course watertight doors are the main cost of modern warships and their lack in the PLAN is why China build ships so cheap!
The author of the paper is PLAN's representative officer at JN shipyard, and he has a description of the improvements taken at that time (2015):
近年来我室会同船舶舾装件生产厂家对舰船用水密门的结构和密封部件进行了改进，以某尺寸的门为例：某型舰选用的风雨密门材料为 Q235 钢，门和框的重量总计为 150kg，而水密门材料采用高强度合金钢后，门的板厚可适当减薄，实际重量仅为 125kg，水密门的重量和风雨密门相比每扇反而轻了 25kg。借鉴国外舰船规范的相关要求，建议在上层建筑 02 甲板及以下的外围壁、水密舱壁及其它有水密要求的舱室围壁上的门均应采用水密门。对于在造和在役舰船的上层建筑外围壁和二甲板主通道上采用的风雨密门应对所在舱室的密性要求进行分析，疏理出薄弱环节，提出整改方案和建议，并结合建造、计划修理、改装等时机逐步安排实施。
In recent years, our department, together with ship outfitting manufacturers, has made improvements to the structure and sealing components of ship watertight doors. Taking a certain size of door as an example, a certain type of ship has selected Q235 steel as the material for the weathertight door, with a total weight of 150kg for the door and frame. However, after using high-strength alloy steel as the material for the watertight door, the thickness of the door can be appropriately reduced, and the actual weight is only 125kg. The weight of the watertight door is actually 25kg lighter than that of the weathertight door. Drawing on the relevant requirements of foreign ship regulations, it is recommended to use watertight doors on the outer walls, watertight bulkheads, and other cabin enclosures of the superstructure 02 deck and below. For the weather tight doors used on the outer walls of the superstructure and the main channel of the 02 deck of ships under construction and in service, the tightness requirements of the cabin should be analyzed, weak links should be sorted out, rectification plans and suggestions should be proposed, and gradually implemented in conjunction with construction, planned repairs, modifications, and other opportunities.
The author also analyzed the regulations related to watertight doors in China and foreign countries, and I only highlight the parts of China here:
我国舰船用门通用规范中按门的主要功能和使用特征可分为：水密门、风雨密门、防风雨密门、气密门、阻气门、防火门、屏蔽门、非密性门（空腹门、驾驶室移门）、冷库门、防弹门、机库门等。规范要求水密门的承压能力根据不同使用部位的要求选取，风雨密门无需承受水压，只要求满足风浪情况下不渗水，防风雨密门只在雨水或海水飞溅情况下不渗水。而在舰船总体设计时究竟选用何种型式的门，此规范没有明确规定，需根据与总体设计相关的规范来要求，与舰船总体设计相关的主要规范和要求如下：
According to the general specifications for ship doors in China, they can be divided into watertight doors, weather tight doors, weather tight doors, airtight doors, choke valves, fire doors, shielded doors, non-airtight doors (hollow doors, cab sliding doors), cold storage doors, bulletproof doors, hangar doors, etc. according to their main functions and usage characteristics. The specifications require that the pressure bearing capacity of watertight doors be selected according to the requirements of different parts of use. Weathertight doors do not need to withstand water pressure, but only need to meet the requirements of impermeability under wind and wave conditions. Weathertight doors only need to be impermeable under rainwater or seawater splashing conditions. However, in the overall design of ships, there is no clear regulation on which type of door to choose. It needs to be required according to the relevant specifications for the overall design. The main specifications and requirements related to the overall design of ships are as follows:
1）舰船船体规范要求：上层建筑外围壁、水密舱壁及其它有水密要求的舱室围壁设置门时应为水密门；
1) Requirements for ship hull regulations: When doors are installed on the outer walls of superstructure, watertight bulkheads, and other cabin walls with watertight requirements, they should be watertight doors;
2）某型号规范要求：上层建筑外围壁、主船体内破损水线以上水密舱壁上作为主要通道处的门应采用风雨密门、水密门；
2) A certain model specification requires: doors on the outer walls of the superstructure and watertight bulkheads above the damaged waterline in the main ship body as the main passage should use weather tight doors or watertight doors;
3）舰船通用规范要求：水密区域周界的舱壁上需要设有通道开口时应配置水密门；有三防要求的水面舰船外围壁和其他水面舰船上层建筑 02 甲板以下外围壁上，一般配置风雨密门，主通道上的风雨密门宜配置迅速启闭装置；水面舰船上层建筑 02 甲板以上的外围壁上，一般可配置防风雨密门。
3) General specification requirements for ships: When channel openings are required on the bulkheads around the watertight area, watertight doors should be installed; The outer walls of surface ships with three prevention requirements and the outer walls below the 02 deck of other surface ship superstructures are generally equipped with weather tight doors. The weather tight doors on the main channel should be equipped with quick opening and closing devices; On the outer walls above the 02 deck of the superstructure of surface vessels, weather tight doors can generally be installed.
(Skip some paragraphs)
对比相关规范标准的要求可以看出，我国与舰船用门相关的标准规范中，要求不尽相同，如：舰船船体规范中对上层建筑外围壁、水密舱壁及其它有水密要求的舱室围壁设置门时要求应设水密门，没有提及我们在上层建筑围壁上通常采用的风雨密门的概念。某型号规范中要求上层建筑外围壁、主船体内破损水线以上水密舱壁上作为主要通道处的门应采用风雨密门、水密门，表述较为模糊，没有明确要求哪些部位该用水密门？哪些部位该用风雨密门？缺乏可操作性。舰船通用规范中明确：水密区域周界的舱壁上需要设有通道开口时应配置水密门；有三防要求的水面舰船外围壁和其他水面舰船上层建筑 02 甲板以下外围壁上，一般配置风雨密门；水面舰船上层建筑 02 甲板以上的外围壁上，一般可配置防风雨密门。从上述三份国内标准看出，舰船船体规范对舰船用门的密性要求最为严格，而舰船通用规范的要求是最为宽松的。此外，我国规范中要求的水密门的应用范围较窄，通常只在主水密舱壁、应急脱险通道、上层建筑主甲板层外围壁等部位设水密门，水密门的承压能力只提供了一个范围，没有明确如何确定和选取，水密门的尺寸和承压能力也没有形成系列产品。鉴于上述问题，不同的设计单位、设计人员，不同型号的舰船在水密门的选用上有可塑性，造成部分型号现役舰船的上层建筑外围壁上的门和二甲板主通道上的门采用风雨密门，导致存在薄弱环节。
By comparing the requirements of relevant regulations and standards, it can be seen that there are different requirements in the standards and specifications related to ship doors in China. For example, in the ship hull specifications, when setting doors for the outer walls of superstructure, watertight bulkheads, and other cabin walls with watertight requirements, watertight doors are required, and the concept of weathertight doors commonly used on superstructure walls is not mentioned. The specification for a certain model requires that the doors on the outer walls of the superstructure and the watertight bulkheads above the damaged waterline in the main ship body as the main passage should use weathertight doors or watertight doors. The expression is relatively vague and does not specify which parts should be watertight doors? Which parts should be equipped with weather tight doors? Lack of operability. The general specifications for ships specify that when channel openings are required on the bulkheads around the watertight area, watertight doors should be installed; The outer walls of surface ships with three prevention requirements and the outer walls below the 02 deck of other surface ship superstructures are generally equipped with weather tight doors; On the outer walls above the 02 deck of the superstructure of surface vessels, weather tight doors can generally be installed. From the three domestic standards mentioned above, it can be seen that the ship hull regulations have the strictest requirements for the tightness of ship doors, while the general regulations for ships have the most relaxed requirements. In addition, the application scope of watertight doors required by Chinese regulations is relatively narrow, usually only set up in the main watertight bulkheads, emergency escape channels, outer walls of the main deck layer of the superstructure, and other parts. The pressure bearing capacity of watertight doors only provides a range, without clear determination and selection, and the size and pressure bearing capacity of watertight doors have not formed a series of products. In view of the above issues, different design units and personnel may have plasticity in the selection of watertight doors for different types of ships, resulting in the use of weathertight doors for doors on the outer walls of the superstructure and on the main channel of the second deck of some active duty ships, resulting in weak links.
我国舰船用门通用规范中按门的主要功能和使用特征可分为：水密门、风雨密门、防风雨密门、气密门、阻气门、防火门、屏蔽门、非密性门（空腹门、驾驶室移门）、冷库门、防弹门、机库门等。规范要求水密门的承压能力根据不同使用部位的要求选取，风雨密门无需承受水压，只要求满足风浪情况下不渗水，防风雨密门只在雨水或海水飞溅情况下不渗水。而在舰船总体设计时究竟选用何种型式的门，此规范没有明确规定，需根据与总体设计相关的规范来要求，与舰船总体设计相关的主要规范和要求如下：
According to the general specifications for ship doors in China, they can be divided into watertight doors, weather tight doors, weather tight doors, airtight doors, choke valves, fire doors, shielded doors, non-airtight doors (hollow doors, cab sliding doors), cold storage doors, bulletproof doors, hangar doors, etc. according to their main functions and usage characteristics. The specifications require that the pressure bearing capacity of watertight doors be selected according to the requirements of different parts of use. Weathertight doors do not need to withstand water pressure, but only need to meet the requirements of impermeability under wind and wave conditions. Weathertight doors only need to be impermeable under rainwater or seawater splashing conditions. However, in the overall design of ships, there is no clear regulation on which type of door to choose. It needs to be required according to the relevant specifications for the overall design. The main specifications and requirements related to the overall design of ships are as follows:
1）舰船船体规范要求：上层建筑外围壁、水密舱壁及其它有水密要求的舱室围壁设置门时应为水密门；
1) Requirements for ship hull regulations: When doors are installed on the outer walls of superstructure, watertight bulkheads, and other cabin walls with watertight requirements, they should be watertight doors;
2）某型号规范要求：上层建筑外围壁、主船体内破损水线以上水密舱壁上作为主要通道处的门应采用风雨密门、水密门；
2) A certain model specification requires: doors on the outer walls of the superstructure and watertight bulkheads above the damaged waterline in the main ship body as the main passage should use weather tight doors or watertight doors;
3）舰船通用规范要求：水密区域周界的舱壁上需要设有通道开口时应配置水密门；有三防要求的水面舰船外围壁和其他水面舰船上层建筑 02 甲板以下外围壁上，一般配置风雨密门，主通道上的风雨密门宜配置迅速启闭装置；水面舰船上层建筑 02 甲板以上的外围壁上，一般可配置防风雨密门。
3) General specification requirements for ships: When channel openings are required on the bulkheads around the watertight area, watertight doors should be installed; The outer walls of surface ships with three prevention requirements and the outer walls below the 02 deck of other surface ship superstructures are generally equipped with weather tight doors. The weather tight doors on the main channel should be equipped with quick opening and closing devices; On the outer walls above the 02 deck of the superstructure of surface vessels, weather tight doors can generally be installed.
(Skip some paragraphs)
对比相关规范标准的要求可以看出，我国与舰船用门相关的标准规范中，要求不尽相同，如：舰船船体规范中对上层建筑外围壁、水密舱壁及其它有水密要求的舱室围壁设置门时要求应设水密门，没有提及我们在上层建筑围壁上通常采用的风雨密门的概念。某型号规范中要求上层建筑外围壁、主船体内破损水线以上水密舱壁上作为主要通道处的门应采用风雨密门、水密门，表述较为模糊，没有明确要求哪些部位该用水密门？哪些部位该用风雨密门？缺乏可操作性。舰船通用规范中明确：水密区域周界的舱壁上需要设有通道开口时应配置水密门；有三防要求的水面舰船外围壁和其他水面舰船上层建筑 02 甲板以下外围壁上，一般配置风雨密门；水面舰船上层建筑 02 甲板以上的外围壁上，一般可配置防风雨密门。从上述三份国内标准看出，舰船船体规范对舰船用门的密性要求最为严格，而舰船通用规范的要求是最为宽松的。此外，我国规范中要求的水密门的应用范围较窄，通常只在主水密舱壁、应急脱险通道、上层建筑主甲板层外围壁等部位设水密门，水密门的承压能力只提供了一个范围，没有明确如何确定和选取，水密门的尺寸和承压能力也没有形成系列产品。鉴于上述问题，不同的设计单位、设计人员，不同型号的舰船在水密门的选用上有可塑性，造成部分型号现役舰船的上层建筑外围壁上的门和二甲板主通道上的门采用风雨密门，导致存在薄弱环节。
By comparing the requirements of relevant regulations and standards, it can be seen that there are different requirements in the standards and specifications related to ship doors in China. For example, in the ship hull specifications, when setting doors for the outer walls of superstructure, watertight bulkheads, and other cabin walls with watertight requirements, watertight doors are required, and the concept of weathertight doors commonly used on superstructure walls is not mentioned. The specification for a certain model requires that the doors on the outer walls of the superstructure and the watertight bulkheads above the damaged waterline in the main ship body as the main passage should use weathertight doors or watertight doors. The expression is relatively vague and does not specify which parts should be watertight doors? Which parts should be equipped with weather tight doors? Lack of operability. The general specifications for ships specify that when channel openings are required on the bulkheads around the watertight area, watertight doors should be installed; The outer walls of surface ships with three prevention requirements and the outer walls below the 02 deck of other surface ship superstructures are generally equipped with weather tight doors; On the outer walls above the 02 deck of the superstructure of surface vessels, weather tight doors can generally be installed. From the three domestic standards mentioned above, it can be seen that the ship hull regulations have the strictest requirements for the tightness of ship doors, while the general regulations for ships have the most relaxed requirements. In addition, the application scope of watertight doors required by Chinese regulations is relatively narrow, usually only set up in the main watertight bulkheads, emergency escape channels, outer walls of the main deck layer of the superstructure, and other parts. The pressure bearing capacity of watertight doors only provides a range, without clear determination and selection, and the size and pressure bearing capacity of watertight doors have not formed a series of products. In view of the above issues, different design units and personnel may have plasticity in the selection of watertight doors for different types of ships, resulting in the use of weathertight doors for doors on the outer walls of the superstructure and on the main channel of the second deck of some active duty ships, resulting in weak links.
Yeah, for me the whole conversation is garbage sh*t. Like mentioned Chinese destroyer is have "pristine condition" after whole month deployed is not a praise but just way to say: Nanning is not a proper warship , it just a shining showcase trophy to show off. And those sailor on ship is not soldiers/warrior but just a bunch of professional janitor. And always have included same shit: "communist propaganda". Yeah while American can randomly raise and applause how great their founding fathers, how great to be a American it just normal but when a Chinese ship have some slogans to remind it soldiers they are defend their homeland/motherland it became "Communist propaganda". Lol, f*ck those shit head.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
To be honest, it’s quite absurd that people have wasted this much time and effort to debunk an obvious loaded observation looking to fit standard western prejudices. As has already been pointed out, the pristine condition of the ship was merely noted, with zero follow up on how that reflects on the professionalism and discipline of the crew (which are also directly relevant to firefighting and DC), but a casual observation, and a poor one at that, and the PLAN isn’t a serious navy and doesn’t understand basics like watertight doors and firefighting.
Watertight doors are such a basic and universal core fundamental of shipbuilding that is frankly idiotic to assert that the world’s biggest commercial and military shipbuilding would not know where they should be installed on warships. And it’s just as idiotic to suggest any navy would compromise on such core fundamentals to penny pinch to save what? Less than the cost of a missile?
If he had observed that the watertight doors lacked certain specific features found on other warships that was introduced as a result of lessons learnt from combat, that would be marginally more believable but still obviously bullshit once you go beyond the most basic surface level. But somehow I doubt he has anything close to the level of technical knowledge to notice such details.
The Chinese navy are far more aware than anyone that they lack the history and combat experience of foreign navies, almost to an obsessive and paranoid level. That is why they gather as much information as humanly possible about every minute aspect of foreign warship design and operation, often at great expense and totally unnecessarily, like when they bought decommissioned soviet and western warships for ‘scrapping’, which was basically so they can pull them apart and learn everything possible.
The PLAN are not needlessly proud and will use foreign navies as models and baselines wherever possible, case in point them basically adopting the entire USN carrier playbook for their own carrier operations.
With this proven and consistent track record, it’s just mind boggling how someone knowledgeable could seriously think they would not know about the importance of firefighting/DC or watertight doors.
Watertight doors are such a basic and universal core fundamental of shipbuilding that is frankly idiotic to assert that the world’s biggest commercial and military shipbuilding would not know where they should be installed on warships. And it’s just as idiotic to suggest any navy would compromise on such core fundamentals to penny pinch to save what? Less than the cost of a missile?
If he had observed that the watertight doors lacked certain specific features found on other warships that was introduced as a result of lessons learnt from combat, that would be marginally more believable but still obviously bullshit once you go beyond the most basic surface level. But somehow I doubt he has anything close to the level of technical knowledge to notice such details.
The Chinese navy are far more aware than anyone that they lack the history and combat experience of foreign navies, almost to an obsessive and paranoid level. That is why they gather as much information as humanly possible about every minute aspect of foreign warship design and operation, often at great expense and totally unnecessarily, like when they bought decommissioned soviet and western warships for ‘scrapping’, which was basically so they can pull them apart and learn everything possible.
The PLAN are not needlessly proud and will use foreign navies as models and baselines wherever possible, case in point them basically adopting the entire USN carrier playbook for their own carrier operations.
With this proven and consistent track record, it’s just mind boggling how someone knowledgeable could seriously think they would not know about the importance of firefighting/DC or watertight doors.
by78
General
How interesting... I wonder how much of the ship Xavier had access to as a member of the public. I think it was likely very limited. Even so, I'm not sure Xavier was being entirely honest. He said he was "walking from the helicopter deck to inside the vessel" and saw a boat (must have been the rigid inflatable boat) and then torpedo launchers. This means that he entered the ship from a door next to the aft helicopter hangar and then walked forward toward the bow. I happen to have footage of this same path taken by a Chinese journalist, and the footage contradicts Xavier's account. See screenshots below.
Here's the Chinese journalist entering a 052D through the watertight door located next to the helicopter hangar.
Immediately he arrives at the rigid inflatable boat (RIB) Xavier talked about, but I see no gas tanks Xavier mentioned. What's that I see in the immediate vicinity of the RIB? Firefighting equipment and breathing apparatuses for the crew to prevent smoke inhalation! How did Xaiver miss those? The torpedo launchers lie some distance ahead of the RIB, and they are separated from the RIB by two sets of partitions. In other words, there is no direct and unimpeded line of sight between the RIB and the torpedos. There is also additional firefighting equipment right next to the torpedo launchers, as well as a second watertight door. How did Xavier not remember seeing this second watertight door and all that firefighting equipment along the way?
As the Chinese journalist walks further ahead towards the bow, he encounters more watertight doors and firefighting equipment along the way, as well as more breathing apparatuses. I wonder if Xavier actually made it this far on his tour, or maybe he simply chose not to remember.
Even the uppermost deck of the ship features watertight/weathertight doors. Here we see the journalist exit through two sets of watertight doors that lead to the open deck next to the bridge (red circled part in the photo immediately below). In between these two sets of watertight doors lies a cabin, which is also sealed by a watertight door.
In conclusion, I think it's safe to say that Xavier either has a very faulty memory or very faulty objectivity, or both.
P.S. Mr. Xavier Vavasseur, if you are reading this, I'd like to hear from you on what you make of my thoughts. Am I being unfair? If you're visually impaired, please accept my apologies.
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Do you have the link of this video?How interesting... I wonder how much of the ship Xavier had access to as a member of the public. I think it was likely very limited. Even so, I'm not sure Xavier was being entirely honest. He said he was "walking from the helicopter deck to inside the vessel" and saw a boat (must have been the rigid inflatable boat) and then torpedo launchers. This means that he entered the ship from a door next to the aft helicopter hangar and then walked forward toward the bow. I happen to have footage of this same path taken by a Chinese journalist, and the footage contradicts Xavier's account. See screenshots below.
Here's the Chinese journalist entering a 052D through the watertight door located next to the helicopter hangar.
Immediately he arrives at the rigid inflatable boat (RIB) Xavier talked about, but I see no gas tanks Xavier mentioned. What's that I see in the immediate vicinity of the RIB? Firefighting equipment and breathing apparatuses for the crew to prevent smoke inhalation! How did Xaiver miss those? The torpedo launchers lie some distance ahead of the RIB, and they are separated from the RIB by two sets of partitions. In other words, there is no direct and unimpeded line of sight between the RIB and the torpedos. There is also additional firefighting equipment right next to the torpedo launchers, as well as a second watertight door. How did Xavier not remember seeing this second watertight door and all that firefighting equipment along the way?
As the Chinese journalist walks further ahead towards the bow, he encounters more watertight doors and firefighting equipment along the way, as well as more breathing apparatuses. I wonder if Xavier actually made it this far on his tour, or maybe he simply chose not to remember.
Even the uppermost deck of the ship features watertight/weathertight doors. Here we see the journalist exit through two sets of watertight doors that lead to the open deck next to the bridge (red circled part in the photo immediately below). In between these two sets of watertight doors lies a cabin, which is also sealed by a watertight door.
In conclusion, I think it's safe to say that Xavier either has a very faulty memory or very faulty objectivity, or both.
P.S. Mr. Xavier Vavasseur, if you are reading this, I'd like to hear from you on what you make of my thoughts. Am I being unfair? If you're visually impaired, please accept my apologies.