052C/052D Class Destroyers

Max Demian

Junior Member
Registered Member
And why would you want to install a larger more powerful radar in a Type-052D?
I don't see that many scenarios where it is actually useful.
Because of evolving threats? These ships will be around for 30 years. The battlefield will significantly change through their lifetime.

The FLIIA Burkes built through the late 90s and 00s will be upgraded with the more power hungry SPY-6 GaN AESA radars. But these ships at least have reserve buoyancy to accommodate heavier generators if needed, or ballast to counteract the topside heaviness of the new AESA radar.
 
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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Because of evolving threats? These ships will be around for 30 years. The battlefield will significantly change through their lifetime.

The FLIIA Burkes built through the late 90s and 00s will be upgraded with the more power hungry SPY-6 GaN AESA radars. But these ships at least have reserve buoyancy to accommodate heavier generators if needed, or ballast to counteract the topside heaviness of the new AESA radar.

The Type-052D already has AESA modules and a VLS.
That is pretty much future proof, and there's only 25 of them. That is a modest number which means there will always be a useful mission for them.

If there are evolving threats, that is where the Type-055 comes in.
I expect at least 30 of them to be built, so a Type-052D would usually operate with a Type-055.

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The FLIIA Arleigh Burke radars are being upgraded because they have outdated SPY-1 PESA radars, and are incapable of dealing with hypersonic missiles.

Those Burkes would probably have been left as-is, if the Zumwalts with the SPY-6 AESA radar had been produced in larger numbers.

But guess what?

The Zumwalts were supposed to be produced in larger numbers, and to host the SPY-6 radars, but the Zumwalts are a failed programme that was cancelled.

In comparison, the Type-052D with is AESA radars should be able to defend against incoming hypersonic missiles. Plus China will face much lower numbers of incoming hypersonics because the US doesn't have the platforms or land locations to launch many hypersonics, and has prioritised smaller subsonic cruise missiles instead.

Plus there is always the Type-055 which has a lot spare electrical capacity for upgrades.
 

Max Demian

Junior Member
Registered Member
The Type-052D already has AESA modules and a VLS.
That is pretty much future proof, and there's only 25 of them. That is a modest number which means there will always be a useful mission for them.
Strange that you would argue that a ship built in 2020 won't need substantial upgrades through 2050, but whatever ...

The FLIIA Arleigh Burke radars are being upgraded because they have outdated SPY-1 PESA radars, and are incapable of dealing with hypersonic missiles.
Those Burkes would probably have been left as-is, if the Zumwalts with the SPY-6 AESA radar had been produced in larger numbers.

But guess what? The Zumwalts were supposed to be produced in larger numbers, and to host the SPY-6 radars, but the Zumwalts are a failed programme that was cancelled.
This is wrong on multiple accounts. SPY-1 PESA together with AEGIS is very much capable of engaging hypersonic targets. Did you forget that these ships provide a BMD umbrella vs MRBM travelling at Mach 10+?
Second, the Zumwalt class was never supposed to get SPY-6. They were designed with DBR consisting of SPY-3 and SPY-4.

In comparison, the Type-052D with is AESA radars should be able to defend against incoming hypersonic missiles. Plus China will face much lower numbers of incoming hypersonics because the US doesn't have the platforms or land locations to launch many hypersonics, and has prioritised smaller subsonic cruise missiles instead.
Actually, I haven't seen any evidence that Type 346 AESA radar family and 052D combat system is capable of engaging MRBMs, or hypersonics for that matter. What evidence do you have?

We don't know what the US will have 10-15 years down the road. That's the whole point.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Strange that you would argue that a ship built in 2020 won't need substantial upgrades through 2050, but whatever ...

I don't think upgrading the Type-052D main search radar during the MLU will be required.
Plus I think there will be a lot of Type-055 available to fill in any possible capability gap by that point.

This is wrong on multiple accounts. SPY-1 PESA together with AEGIS is very much capable of engaging hypersonic targets. Did you forget that these ships provide a BMD umbrella vs MRBM travelling at Mach 10+?
Second, the Zumwalt class was never supposed to get SPY-6. They were designed with DBR consisting of SPY-3 and SPY-4.

The problem is that a PESA only operates on a single frequency and sends out broad pulses which results in less precise accuracy.
That works find for a limited number of ballistic missiles travelling at hypersonic speed.

But PESA fails when you have large numbers of missiles AND/OR hypersonic missiles which can maneuver.


Actually, I haven't seen any evidence that Type 346 AESA radar family and 052D combat system is capable of engaging MRBMs, or hypersonics for that matter. What evidence do you have?

We don't know what the US will have 10-15 years down the road. That's the whole point.

What MRBMs or Hypersonic missiles would a Type-052D be expected to engage in 5 year's time?
By 2025, I would expect at least 20 Type-055s to be available for this mission, which should be sufficient.
And going forward, I expect even more Type-055s will continue to be built.

If you have concerns that the Type-052D doesn't have enough electricity for future upgrades, the solution is to switch production to the Type-055.

Remember that a Type-052D only costs $550M.
It isn't supposed to match the capabilities of an Arleigh Burke which happens to cost 3x more.
 

Max Demian

Junior Member
Registered Member
The problem is that a PESA only operates on a single frequency and sends out broad pulses which results in less precise accuracy.
That works find for a limited number of ballistic missiles travelling at hypersonic speed.
This was discussed ad-nauseam before. PESA can operate on a wide range of frequencies, just like AESA. In fact, this capability has nothing to do with PESA/AESA architecture.

Vacuum tube based PESA can actually fire shorter/narrower pulses than AESAs, which for technical reasons have much lower peak powers. SPY-1D(V) has 6MW peak power. Type 346 AESA has a peak power of 125kW, based on the only source (of questionable credibility) that I could find. Therfore, AESA has to emit a longer pulse to radiate an equal amount of energy.
However, if by broad you mean geometry, then again this has nothing to do with PESA vs AESA. The width of the radar beam is a function of antenna aperture size and in case of phased arrays the number of array elements. Since both are radars in the S-band spectrum with roughly the same proportions, there is likely no significant difference between the two in this aspect.

But PESA fails when you have large numbers of missiles AND/OR hypersonic missiles which can maneuver.
Why? Can you give a source?

The limitation of SPY-1 is that it can perform either BMD or AD, but not both roles simultaneously. SPY-6 does not have such a limitation.

If you're interested to learn more about radars and missile guidance, this thread has some good info scattered throughout:
 
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gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
It doesn't matter. The Type 052D has a more advanced AESA radar than most surface ships out there and likely won't need an update for a decade. I think the main concerns with the Type 052D are that it is a bit underpowered for its displacement and some of the auxiliary systems probably could be improved. IEPS would improve stealth but would likely further increase displacement. So it's a toss.

What I don't know is why don't the Chinese simply build more Type 052D ships and retire their archaic collection of older types. Like the Type 051, 052, 052B, 052C, ad nauseum. They should just build 8 more ships and replace them entirely I think. It just increases complexity in logistics, training of crew, and other issues where I don't think it makes sense to keep those ships.

I kind of get the retention of the Sovremennys because you have the dual 130mm guns to support a naval assault.
 

Max Demian

Junior Member
Registered Member
It doesn't matter. The Type 052D has a more advanced AESA radar than most surface ships out there and likely won't need an update for a decade.
We don't know enough to make such a statement. In fact, we have learned surprisingly little about Type 346 in the last 15 years.

What I don't know is why don't the Chinese simply build more Type 052D ships and retire their archaic collection of older types. Like the Type 051, 052, 052B, 052C, ad nauseum. They should just build 8 more ships and replace them entirely I think. It just increases complexity in logistics, training of crew, and other issues where I don't think it makes sense to keep those ships.
Because some of those hulls are less than 10 years old?
 

Max Demian

Junior Member
Registered Member
The whole advantage of AESA is it can do this concurrently, PESA radars can only operate at 1 frequency at a time.
Not every AESA radar can do this. Furthermore, doing that reduces the sensitivity of the radar, so the scenarios where that is useful are small in scope. Certainly useless against long range targets.

As a matter of fact, SPY-1 PESA has 8 transmitters. Therefore, it can transmit at up to 8 frequencies simultaneously.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Because of evolving threats? These ships will be around for 30 years. The battlefield will significantly change through their lifetime.

The FLIIA Burkes built through the late 90s and 00s will be upgraded with the more power hungry SPY-6 GaN AESA radars. But these ships at least have reserve buoyancy to accommodate heavier generators if needed, or ballast to counteract the topside heaviness of the new AESA radar.

Honestly in 30 years, do you think having big radars is a good idea?

Even today the traditional idea of having huge radars is already being challenged. The problem of having big radars is that it gives away your location to the enemy, with assets using ESM. The longer ranged the radar, the longer ranged you're detected. Use your search radar, and soon afterwards, there is a swarm of antiship missiles headed towards you.

Another problem of having larger radars is that it forces it to be set low. No matter how powerful your radars are, its not going to detect threats flying low under the radar horizon.

The better idea is to stealthify the ship, by using integrated masts for example --- Burkes can't have that --- and use LPI radars all around. LPI radars are the opposite of power hungry, and in fact, in order to reduce detection, they need to be low power.
 
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