052C/052D Class Destroyers
- Thread starter Jeff Head
- Start date
You mean the "smaller" that the US Navy has decided to build in large number? The FFG(X) is a derivative of Italian FREMM, weighing more than 6000 tons. Smaller than Arleigh Burke-class destroyer, sure, but much larger than the LCS that it is supposed to succeed.
The 6000-ton frigate that PLAN should build will be a workhorse that can take over some of the functions and workloads performed by 052D now. In any case, the 36 or so (25 + 11) 052D fleet will serve PLAN for decades to come.
In 20 years or longer, PLAN may design and build a new 9000-ton destroyer, and 055 may evolve into a 15000+ ton cruiser. But that's too far in the future to predict.
The 6000-ton frigate that PLAN should build will be a workhorse that can take over some of the functions and workloads performed by 052D now. In any case, the 36 or so (25 + 11) 052D fleet will serve PLAN for decades to come.
In 20 years or longer, PLAN may design and build a new 9000-ton destroyer, and 055 may evolve into a 15000+ ton cruiser. But that's too far in the future to predict.
They are limited by the engines. Something like a 15000 ton cruiser or a 9000 ton destroyer doesn't make sense with their current engine technology. A cruiser like that would likely need a nuclear power source to run at any decent speed. If they could improve naval turbine power to be roughly the same as the Rolls Royce MT30 that would open up more possibilities.
However the MT30 is an engine roughly in the Boeing 777 engine class while the LM2500, or the engine the Chinese currently have, is basically a Boeing 767 engine class. It is the difference between a 413 kN and 274 kN engine. AFAIK there was no Soviet marine turbine engine that large. Nor an aviation engine for that matter. Even the PD-35 engine the Russians are developing won't have enough power even if you could turn it into a marine gas turbine.
I think the Type 052DL is close to optimum in cost effectiveness given the propulsion technology they do have. Just look at the British Type 45 destroyer. It has a little more displacement with a similar engine configuration but it has roughly the same amount of missile cells. The only thing the Type 052DL doesn't have is the IEPS. So I think a next generation destroyer would be basically the Type 052DL with integrated mast radar and IEPS. The Chinese have already developed 20 MW converters for the powertrain so I think it is a matter of time until these show up in the destroyers and cruisers. There is little wrong with the current Type 052DL.
It is the Type 054A frigates which are the problem IMHO. Too slow and the sensor suite is kinda outdated.
However the MT30 is an engine roughly in the Boeing 777 engine class while the LM2500, or the engine the Chinese currently have, is basically a Boeing 767 engine class. It is the difference between a 413 kN and 274 kN engine. AFAIK there was no Soviet marine turbine engine that large. Nor an aviation engine for that matter. Even the PD-35 engine the Russians are developing won't have enough power even if you could turn it into a marine gas turbine.
I think the Type 052DL is close to optimum in cost effectiveness given the propulsion technology they do have. Just look at the British Type 45 destroyer. It has a little more displacement with a similar engine configuration but it has roughly the same amount of missile cells. The only thing the Type 052DL doesn't have is the IEPS. So I think a next generation destroyer would be basically the Type 052DL with integrated mast radar and IEPS. The Chinese have already developed 20 MW converters for the powertrain so I think it is a matter of time until these show up in the destroyers and cruisers. There is little wrong with the current Type 052DL.
It is the Type 054A frigates which are the problem IMHO. Too slow and the sensor suite is kinda outdated.
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With current build-up in the region, I think PLAN will proceed with both 052E and 055A variants along with 054B(or 057) FFG. It's possible that if tensions weren't rising, then they might have ended the 052 family with the D.
Displacement of 052E will be likely larger than current 7500 tons of the 052D, probably greater than 1000 tons so around 8500 tons. If they include hanger space for two helicopters and other improvements like increased VLS cells then it might get larger than 8500 tons.
Size wise, 052D displacement is not that far off from most modern DDG. Type-45 is 7300 tons, Australia's Hobart is around or above 7000 tons. Horizon class above 7000 tons.
Some of the larger destroyers ranging around 9000 tons to 10,000 tons belongs to US, Japan, and South Korea's Sejong class.
Displacement of 052E will be likely larger than current 7500 tons of the 052D, probably greater than 1000 tons so around 8500 tons. If they include hanger space for two helicopters and other improvements like increased VLS cells then it might get larger than 8500 tons.
Size wise, 052D displacement is not that far off from most modern DDG. Type-45 is 7300 tons, Australia's Hobart is around or above 7000 tons. Horizon class above 7000 tons.
Some of the larger destroyers ranging around 9000 tons to 10,000 tons belongs to US, Japan, and South Korea's Sejong class.
The USN Constellation class frigate that is now in detailed design phase will displace 7400 tons, and I am not sure whether that is metric or long tons. It also has a growth potential of over 400 tons. Hardly a small ship.
There are indications that a Type 052D displaces in the vicinity of 8500t. It has added close to 1500t over the 052C without upgrading the propulsion. The 052C had a design speed of 29kts. The 052D is going to be a quite a bit slower than a 052C and that makes me wonder how well it can perform as a CTF escort. And now the 052DL has added another few 100 tons ... Also because of non-existent growth margins, it will be difficult to upgrade these hulls when the need for more powerful radars/energy weapons and greater electric generations arises. I am quite concerned about their future.
I struggle to see why a few knots of speed make any appreciable difference to the real world performance of the Type-052D.
From some of the CSG diagrams we've seen on SDF, it appears that the Type-055 will be the primary close-in carrier escort, with the Type-52C/D on the outer layers.
Plus I don't see any point in upgrading current ships to IEPS in order to support much larger electricity requirements.
They can still operate fine with the VLS as the primary weapon system for long-range missiles.
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Plus I think it's more useful to look at the hulls as common platforms, irrespective of what you put on top.
So we currently have the following:
Type-056: 1500 tons
Type-054: 4000 tons
Type-052: 8000 tons
Type-055: 13000 tons
If you're going to develop, debug and then create the maintenance infrastructure for a new platform in between these hull sizes, I think you need a minimum of 30 hulls in order to justify the additional cost.
Otherwise you're just better off using one of the existing platforms which have been proven.
Why be concerned? That's PLAN business. Plus it will be what it is...if the hull design has no future, it will see a graceful retirement instead of being hacked and patched for a life beyond its years. This isn't like in the US shipbuilding industry where these seems to be a loss in ability and confidence in all new ship designing and building, that you're continually patching old designs or importing existing designs from different sources. The Chinese shipbuilding industry is young and has huge wealth of young engineers --- the average age of the design team for the 055 is said to be only between 30 to 40 years old, with the leader said to be around 36. They are more than happy for every new opportunity, to dream, design, and breed new warships into reality, and would be less eager to continually patch up and upgrade older designs.
Finally, we got pics of 121 Qiqihar now in service, thanks to PDF. According to Chinese wiki, 121 Qiqihar and 122 Tangshan were both commissioned at the same time in August 14, 2020 with the 10th Destroyer Division, but we got pics and videos of 122 Tangshan first.
