052C/052D Class Destroyers

williamhou said:

Any ideas on the cost ratio of 052D / 055?

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gelgoog said:

Comparing with other navies the Chinese may want to keep the three tier structure simply because of cost concerns.
One of the main issues China has is lack of anti-submarine warfare capabilities. A new frigate class which is dedicated to the role would go a long way in addressing this.

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williamhou said:

More like the lack of technology to address that issue (variable depth sonars, effective noise reduction for all ships, long range ASW missiles, advanced ASW aircrafts, etc) and not enough attention is given to ASW (comparing to AAW), partly attributable to USN submarine fleet have been keeping a low-profile unlike their highly visible carrier counterparts.

PLAN has a very long way to go to address ASW capability...

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Tam said:

I would think they have addressed a lot of the way on ASW, as PLAN vessels have both a TAS and a VDS, and its uncommon for a vessel to have two towed sonars. The TAS is likely a low frequency passive one, while the VDS is a medium frequency active sonar meant to obtain a firing solution. You also have the YU-8 ASROC on the Type 054A and the YU-11 flying torpedo on the Type 056A. The helicopters need to be improved though, they need to go beyond the Z-9 and opt for a larger helicopter like the Helix. That's being addressed with the longer deck on the newest Type 052D.

The Type 056A addressed the need for ASW with its TAS/VDS, but a good portion of the class that were built earlier was the generic Type 056 that only had hull sonar. The Type 054A up to the 17th ship only had the TAS, but ships after that also added the VDS.

So they have addressed ASW in a long way, but there is still a long way to go, and wished the entire production runs for the 056 and 054A were more of the later standard. The 052D has both TAS and VDS, but the extended version of the Type 052D (14th ship and above) would address the need for larger helicopters. Still there should also be a new corvette or frigate class.

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williamhou said:

These things are very new to PLAN, and just having a first generation product is not enough, the effectiveness of these TAS and VDS is questionable, things have to be improved over time and over actual operations. Same goes for the experiences that NATO members have gained in WWI, WWII (all that experiences with U boats are not for nothing) and over the past few decades - during which time PLAN had never been serious on ASW (well they practically did not have a Navy after the Sino-Japanese War and before the end of WWII).

The things you have pointed out certainly helps (especially the introduction of 056A with towed sonars), but they are far from enough to be serious on ASW. Japan have been having helicopter destroyers for decades, with each accommodating 3 or more ASW helicopters. Few PLAN destroyers or frigates carry more than 1 helicopter even at much higher tonnage. For the 056, other similarly sizes corvettes like the 1300t Sa'ar 5 have a hangar, the 1800t Braunschweig class has hangar for 2 helicopters. This indicates just how much PLAN doesn't care about helicopters, or ASW in general comparing to other priorities, or other Navies. This lack of capability or awareness is quite astonishing for the 2nd largest economy/Navy in the world.

Submarines are effective submarine hunters, it is no secret how noisy PLAN subs are. And while we see PLAN advances in many areas, quiet subs is not one of them. We can safely assume how noisy the surface combatants are if we know their subs are noisy. So many decades have past since the Soviets and the US competed on advanced submarine technology, yet I wonder does PLAN even care about it?

It looks to me their priorities are more politically motivated - building large and visible surface combatants like the CV, 055, 071, 075 that would impress the man in charge as well as be the pride of the nation, while the value of a large fleet of blue water amphibious ships like the LPD and LHD to PLAN is questionable. It appears the Navy does not really know what they want or need for larger ships, and is just following what the USN does - the USN built the Burke, they come up with their own 052C/D "Aegis", they don't even bother to design it a little differently like the Type 45 or other European AAW destroyers with AESA. The USN built a 25,000t LPD, they came up with a 25,000t LPD that is the equivalent of San Antonino class. And the 075 would probably be 40,000t, just like the WASP/America classes, unlike other Navies in the world that would build according to their needs.

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