052C/052D Class Destroyers

Engineer said:

Actually, China has mastered turbine blades as well as integration. The struggle has been quality control during high volume production, which is workers-culture related. Also, WS-10 is a world-class turbofan, with China being one of the three countries that can produce engine in such a class. Not even Europe can do it. So, your last statement is wrong as well. Really, all this shows you don't know anything about Chinese engine development.

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Engineer said:

Let's say someone from Newton's era was given equations for Quantum Mechanics, he/she won't be able to make sense of it. The mathematicians of the time would even have difficulties grasping the concept of Calculus. The same applies to technologies.

Espionage is just a lame excuse the West uses to belittle China's achievements. In reality, the knowledge and know-how must exist first, so as to allow false information can be filtered out from data obtained from espionage.

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Engineer said:

Comparison via standard only makes sense when all the participants have the same starting line. In the China vs. rest-of-the-world comparison, there are two starting lines.

When rest-of-the-world build a toaster, they simply need to put together off-the-shelf components made by different countries. When China builds a toaster, she must start from raw materials.

Ignorant people love to talk about the quality and performance of the finished product to feel smug. When the starting line is considered, China is actually ahead of every nation with exceptions to the US and former Soviet Union.

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Engineer said:

When rest-of-the-world build a toaster, they simply need to put together off-the-shelf components made by different countries. When China builds a toaster, she must start from raw materials.

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Janiz said:

lol, it's the other way around in most of the cases. Chinese don't have to invent everything from the scratch. They have books and what they can't make they can buy. All that matters is innovation and the starting line is the same for everyone. They're capitalizing from their own ideas as well as the people from all around the world ideas.

So stop you romance-like stories of 'poor China have to do everything from the scratch'. Such statement isn't true at all.

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Engineer said:

LMAO! Who said anything about inventing? China doing everything from scratch is not the same as China inventing everything.

China doesn't have to invent the concept of jet-propulsion, but China has to figure out every step of the manufacturing process of gas turbine engines. A lot of it has to do with material science and processing of raw materials. That's called doing everything from scratch.

Other countries can take their jet designs to US for wind-tunnel testing. China has to build her own wind tunnels.

Another example is the high tensile-strength steels for aircraft carriers and submarines. The only way for China to get such steels is to do it herself, starting right from the processing of the ores. That's called doing everything from scratch.

To this day, China is still under embargoes. A lot of off-the-shelf components, tools, and materials that are available to many countries are simply inaccessible to China. China may be able to steal some once in a while, but not enough for mass production. So deny all you want, but China has to do everything from scratch and that is the reality.

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antiterror13 said:

I totally agree that Chinese gas turbines are not the best of the best ... the US, UK, France and Russia may have better technologies ... but I don't see any other countries can do better than China.

Not the best ... but GOOD enough to get the job done effectively and efficiently

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Engineer said:

Another example is the high tensile-strength steels for aircraft carriers and submarines. The only way for China to get such steels is to do it herself, starting right from the processing of the ores. That's called doing everything from scratch.

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Janiz said:

I haven't seen big companies sharing materials production with others, same with military cutting edge technology. It doesn't happen. I would even think that when they export weapons they use a little bit changed materials even to not let it leak (but that's my assumption). It doesn't happen with other countries and China is just on of those countries. Their situation isn't anything special.

'From the scratch'... Definition is here:

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And China isn't doing that. They're working in high tech industries the way you can find in any such company around the world. They aren't some sort of 'beautiful flower' that works every aspect of technology alone. Neither they started from zero level.

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Engineer said:

So, not only must China come up with a process to manufacture carbonfiber of the same quality, China must also build the tools to enable mass production. That's doing it from scratch.

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Janiz said:

One or two examples which can be easily worked around by reverse engineering or adapting existing machinery (which can be bought abroad and sent in pieces to China anyway - North Korea does it all the time and they're great in those enterprises so it wouldn't surprise me if Chinese companies are taking benefits from this or do the same thing using secret services in strategic fields, the same as many countries around the world do) don't change the general picture. When it comes to steel manufacturing it goes down to the way that they the same tools and machinery working in China as in any other country around the world. Most of the stuff you're writing about is pure know-how, not a challenge from technological point of view. And it's the same for everyone around the world. If someone wants to share it's their business - if they don't, they don't as you wrote it earlier.

None of the countries start from the scratch these days. If they don't have something and want it badly - they buy licenses. If they can't they have to make it work other way around that I mentioned. It doesn't matter if a company comes from Spain, US, China or Russia. Embargo on something means that you can't buy something in the official way and use it, export abroad etc as you will have to pay if that stuff comes up.

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...
While the United States is still at the top in total investment in research and development — spending $500 billion in 2015 —

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has made a startling finding: A couple of years ago, China quietly surpassed the U.S. in spending on the later stage of R&D that turns discoveries into commercial products. And at its current rate of spending, China will invest up to twice as much as the U.S., or $658 billion, by 2018 on this critical late-stage research.
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The country is still the global leader in “basic and applied” R&D, which makes early discoveries and further refines them. About a third of the $500 billion the country spends on R&D is funneled to those activities. But while two-thirds of the total goes to later-stage “development” R&D, China invests 84% of its R&D money on advances that yield commercial products. For the past decade, “development” R&D has been growing 20% a year in China, versus 5% in the U.S., the BCG report says. As recently as 2004, the U.S. spent four times as much as China.


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