052C/052D Class Destroyers

plawolf · Feb 25, 2016

Bltizo said:
China does not require 052D based LACMs to put Hanoi within the range of LACMs... TEL based LACMs based even 500 km away from the border would be capable of putting Hanoi in range and then some.

Also, 052Ds already are in service with the SSF -- the SSF's 2nd destroyer flotilla would be the first to have a full destroyer division of four 052Ds in the entire Navy anyway. But I think it is unlikely that Vietnam or any other nation will protest at the deployment of 052Ds even if/when it is confirmed that they can fire LACMs.

Sea based LACMs does have the advantage of having to spend minimal time over enemy territory.

Missiles flying across the land boarder would have to fly pretty much the entire journey over enemy territory, giving them at least the possibility of intercepting them. Especially since the enemy would know the general direction the missiles would be coming from, so have all their sensors and weapons pointed in that direction and can mount multiple layers of defences.

With missiles coming in from the sea, the length of time spent over hostile territory is cut to a fraction, significantly reducing the opportunity for an enemy to try and intercept them.

In addition, with a naval strike, the missiles could be coming in from almost any vector, so would make it far harder to establish the same kind of coverage as is possible with the land boarder.

However, depending on the range of the missiles, it's also perfectly possible for land based missiles to fly a circumspect course over the sea and flank enemy defences.

plawolf · Feb 25, 2016

MwRYum said:
Well I just like to have something solid (preferably an actual launch, better a slo-mo clip of the LACM score a hit on the test target) to go with...or as an alternative, having Vietnam file an official protest when the South Sea Fleet begin to field 052D in its fleet (which practically makes the whole of Hanoi within striking range, even if the launch ship stay well within Chinese waters), which would be an indication that the PLAN finally has long-range, ship-borne land attack capability for the first time, and it makes those unfriendly neighbours feel uneasy...something along that line.

Those unfriendly neighbours don't doubt Chinese capabilities. What they are banking on is that it isn't worth the political and diplomatic costs for China to unleash all its military might on them.

Having more and better weapons won't change that dynamic.

It's sad to say that some people just won't respect you until you take your big stick out of its case and beat them over the head with it.

China is going out of its way to avoid that, and has certainly shown far more restraint than the rest of the P5 combined. But instead of getting any credit or recognition for that, it is instead getting bullied.

That is the sad reality of the world order we live under. Is it any wonder the Chinese are discontent to respect and perpetuate that?

China is trying to change the world, for the better, where nations can be honourable and reasonable with each other.

But it is also building a great big stick because the world we live in is still a far cry from that, and if history has taught the Chinese one thing, it's that you cannot rely on virtue or culture or treaties to protect you if some barbarian decides he likes what you have and wants to kick down your door to take it from you.

MwRYum · Feb 25, 2016

Just curious and checked out online to see how's the 052D production run projected...if the online materials are to be trusted, 10-12 ships of the same model will make the 052D the most numerous single DD/DDG model to be produced for the PLAN - even the previous mainstay, the Luda class have to spread throughout the whole series to reach 17 hulls.

AndrewS · Feb 25, 2016

plawolf said:
Sea based LACMs does have the advantage of having to spend minimal time over enemy territory.

Missiles flying across the land boarder would have to fly pretty much the entire journey over enemy territory, giving them at least the possibility of intercepting them. Especially since the enemy would know the general direction the missiles would be coming from, so have all their sensors and weapons pointed in that direction and can mount multiple layers of defences.

With missiles coming in from the sea, the length of time spent over hostile territory is cut to a fraction, significantly reducing the opportunity for an enemy to try and intercept them.

In addition, with a naval strike, the missiles could be coming in from almost any vector, so would make it far harder to establish the same kind of coverage as is possible with the land boarder.

However, depending on the range of the missiles, it's also perfectly possible for land based missiles to fly a circumspect course over the sea and flank enemy defences.

True, but look at the cost implications.

A Type-52D with 64 VLS cells is at least $800million. So the platform costs over $12million per VLS cell.
The Type-55 will work out somewhat better. Call it 112 cells for $1000million, which would be only $8.9million each.

Then compare the LACM TEL which carries 3 missiles and probably costs a maximum of $3million. So the platform only costs $1million per missile which is over 10x cheaper.

Of course, TELs aren't as mobile as the Type-52D, but they can hide better and cover inland areas better as well.

And with a range of 1500km+, LACMs launched from the Chinese mainland can cover most of the Western Pacific and SCS.

Blitzo · Feb 25, 2016

plawolf said:
Sea based LACMs does have the advantage of having to spend minimal time over enemy territory.

Missiles flying across the land boarder would have to fly pretty much the entire journey over enemy territory, giving them at least the possibility of intercepting them. Especially since the enemy would know the general direction the missiles would be coming from, so have all their sensors and weapons pointed in that direction and can mount multiple layers of defences.

With missiles coming in from the sea, the length of time spent over hostile territory is cut to a fraction, significantly reducing the opportunity for an enemy to try and intercept them.

In addition, with a naval strike, the missiles could be coming in from almost any vector, so would make it far harder to establish the same kind of coverage as is possible with the land boarder.

However, depending on the range of the missiles, it's also perfectly possible for land based missiles to fly a circumspect course over the sea and flank enemy defences.

Agreed, but Mwyrum was only talking about being able to have LACMs that can have Hanoi in range -- in that sense, it may actually be more effective to launch LACMs from land based TELs within southern China, given Hanoi is very close to the border and any missiles won't have to overfly enemy territory very long at all... and missiles overflying land not only presents more clutter for defensive radars, but land also presents natural geography that LACMs can use to travel between to evade detection, compared to launching over ocean.

So in the case of Hanoi specifically I think land based LACMs launched from southern China would be just as effective if not more effective than launching them from ships, unless one was interested in more complex multi axis attacks for whatever reason.

MwRYum said:
Just curious and checked out online to see how's the 052D production run projected...if the online materials are to be trusted, 10-12 ships of the same model will make the 052D the most numerous single DD/DDG model to be produced for the PLAN - even the previous mainstay, the Luda class have to spread throughout the whole series to reach 17 hulls.

If you're looking at wikipedia... 12 052Ds right now is the minimum expected number. Some predictions have it going well past 12 ships, up to potentially 24 ships.

In either case, it was pretty well known that 052D would be the first truly mass produced modern DDG for the Chinese Navy even a few years back. I think the 12 ship number was first mentioned in 2012 or 2013.

Jeff Head · Feb 25, 2016

Bltizo said:
If you're looking at wikipedia... 12 052Ds right now is the minimum expected number. Some predictions have it going well past 12 ships, up to potentially 24 ships.

In either case, it was pretty well known that 052D would be the first truly mass produced modern DDG for the Chinese Navy even a few years back. I think the 12 ship number was first mentioned in 2012 or 2013.

12 Type 052Ds plus 6 Type 052Cs is a goodly number.

I think it more likely that it turns into 18 Type 052Ds and 6 Type 052Cs for a total of 24 of the two combined.

We shall see.

Then when you add in what is likely to be upwards of 12 Type 055s...you end up with 36 very capable, modern, area coverage DDGs for the PLAN.

To that you add the two Type 051Cs, the two Type 052Bs, the four Sovs, the Type 051B and the two Type 052s. That's another 11 DDGs. A total of 47 DDGs is a very large DDGs force. 2nd largest and most powerful on earth.

But they would not be finished in terms of blue water surface combatants because you have to add what is going to be at least 28 Type 054A FFGs and two Type 054 FFGs...another 30 vessels.

That's going to be a HUGE surface fleet of almost 80 very effective, modern surface combatants the PLAN will have concentrated largely in the western Pacific.

Simply amazing!

plawolf · Feb 25, 2016

Bltizo said:
Agreed, but Mwyrum was only talking about being able to have LACMs that can have Hanoi in range -- in that sense, it may actually be more effective to launch LACMs from land based TELs within southern China, given Hanoi is very close to the border and any missiles won't have to overfly enemy territory very long at all... and missiles overflying land not only presents more clutter for defensive radars, but land also presents natural geography that LACMs can use to travel between to evade detection, compared to launching over ocean.

So in the case of Hanoi specifically I think land based LACMs launched from southern China would be just as effective if not more effective than launching them from ships, unless one was interested in more complex multi axis attacks for whatever reason.

Well, again, it's enemy terrain, which presents opportunity as well as risk since you have got to assume the enemy will know the place better than you.

If you can spot good penetration routes trying to use topography as natural cover, then so can a clever opponent. It would be pretty easy and cheap thing to do to station troops with MANPADs and/or AAA and even short range mobile SAMs to cover those areas when tensions look likely to spill into actual conflict.

A sea based attack would be almost impossible to predict so easily. And let's not forget, just because you are launching missiles from ships doesn't mean those missiles have to make a beeline for their targets, and can take advantage of natural cover as well after they reach land.

They will be more exposed making the approach to land, but only if you are sloppy enough to leave enemy coastal defence radars unmolested before striking at the very heart of the enemy.

Coastal radars would be amongst the first targets you would want to hit, long before launching missiles at the enemy capital.

By the time missiles are heading towards the enemy capital, other strikes should have already paced the way for it.

On balance, it would ceased and more reliable to take out coastal defences from an unexpected vector rather than trying to make a thunder run down the throat of the most obvious and heavily defended attack vectors in my book.

You will still want to clear those approaches, but better to do so from altitude, safe from the bulk of enemy weapons rather than trying your Luck with cruise missiles flying so low regular enemy grunts can have a pop with their rifles even.

Blitzo · Feb 25, 2016

plawolf said:
Well, again, it's enemy terrain, which presents opportunity as well as risk since you have got to assume the enemy will know the place better than you.

If you can spot good penetration routes trying to use topography as natural cover, then so can a clever opponent. It would be pretty easy and cheap thing to do to station troops with MANPADs and/or AAA and even short range mobile SAMs to cover those areas when tensions look likely to spill into actual conflict.

A sea based attack would be almost impossible to predict so easily. And let's not forget, just because you are launching missiles from ships doesn't mean those missiles have to make a beeline for their targets, and can take advantage of natural cover as well after they reach land.

They will be more exposed making the approach to land, but only if you are sloppy enough to leave enemy coastal defence radars unmolested before striking at the very heart of the enemy.

Coastal radars would be amongst the first targets you would want to hit, long before launching missiles at the enemy capital.

By the time missiles are heading towards the enemy capital, other strikes should have already paced the way for it.

On balance, it would ceased and more reliable to take out coastal defences from an unexpected vector rather than trying to make a thunder run down the throat of the most obvious and heavily defended attack vectors in my book.

You will still want to clear those approaches, but better to do so from altitude, safe from the bulk of enemy weapons rather than trying your Luck with cruise missiles flying so low regular enemy grunts can have a pop with their rifles even.

I'm not too sure as to the efficacy of blindly positioning what essentially amounts to point defense systems along predicted flight paths of cruise missiles, without having early warning radars (preferably airborne) to coordinate the actual defenses.
Furthermore if there really was a threat of interception by point defenses at low altitude it would be a simple matter of flying at higher altitude with the same kind of SEAD that would be required for a sea based launch to succeed anyway, though it will depend on how comprehensive those defenses are.
So what we're really talking about is how well defended and monitored the airspace north of Hanoi is vs the airspace east of Hanoi is.

But this is all somewhat a tangent to the original point, which was that if the Chinese military wanted an ability to credibly threaten with conventional long range cruise missiles, I think they already have the ability to do so with land launched cruise missiles and that Vietnam's military at present has fairly limited means of defending from such attacks given the low altitude and hard to detect nature of cruise missiles and Vietnam's lack of even basic AEW.

A.Man · Mar 1, 2016

130 mm gun

damitch300 · Mar 1, 2016

By the way that module looks like on the barrel. Seems they are testing (newer 052d?) and also straight ocean.
By the way that module looks like on the barrel. Seems they are testing (newer 052d?) and also straight ocean.
Havnt seen this before at the Chinese.
I am curious if they use splash spotting with their fcs to and adjust according to.
Do they also still use TDS's on their modern ships?

052C/052D Class Destroyers

plawolf

Lieutenant General

plawolf

Lieutenant General

MwRYum

Major

AndrewS

Brigadier

Blitzo

Lieutenant General

Jeff Head

General

plawolf

Lieutenant General

Blitzo

Lieutenant General

A.Man

Major

damitch300

Junior Member