052/052B Class Destroyers

Re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

asif iqbal said:

That is interesting as its a picture from inside the hallway and we haven't seem too many of those!

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Yes....its a good, clear picture...........But.........i cant believe no one has not commented on the white label on the photo.

Is there something special about the propulsion system that we are not supposed to see?.........or something else?

Re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

I guess one of the role for the over-sized turret is to serve as sandbag to protect the VLS, if you look at the photo, unless the incoming missile approaching vertically, it wont be able to hit the VLS directly.

Re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Jeff Head said:

The new 130mm gun is a nice naval gun. It will be interesting to learn more specifics about their extended range munitions.

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I wonder if with these new age extended range munitions on the 127/130/155mm guns, can they be used for OTH anti-ship missions in the future? You can certainly store many more rounds of them and they are far cheaper than anti-ship missiles.

Re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

127mm volcano ammo has range of some 70-120 km, which it achieves through non manouvering ballistic flight profiles. those are pretty easy to intercept. while brochures will surely say "little darts are hard to detect and intercept" in reality that is simply not true. Anti-artillery radars have been tracking 105mm rounds at over 20 km distances for some time now. And those are far smaller and less potent radars than what ship based radars can offer. And once something like an artillery shell is tracked for a few tens of km, it's very vulnerable.

GPS round costs a few tens of thousands of dollars. I haven't seen the cost for the IIR guided round, which is allegedly meant exactly for antishipping roles, but it's bound to be more expensive. it wouldn't be unreasonable if it ended within the fifty to hundred thousand dollars bracket.

of course those rounds may find a niche role against non combat ships or very lightly equipped ships with lousy radars and ciws - but properly equipped frigates and destroyers won't have much trouble against them. and vulcano rounds, being made for ordinary 127mm naval guns, trade their warheads for propellant (for range) meaning in the end their destructive power is even less than a regular 127mm round's (which weighs some 30 kg).

Re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Totoro said:

127mm volcano ammo has range of some 70-120 km, which it achieves through non manouvering ballistic flight profiles.

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According to "VULCANO is a steerable sub-munition with tail fins and canards."

Totoro said:

those are pretty easy to intercept.

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says who?

Totoro said:

while brochures will surely say "little darts are hard to detect and intercept" in reality that is simply not true. Anti-artillery radars have been tracking 105mm rounds at over 20 km distances for some time now. And those are far smaller and less potent radars than what ship based radars can offer. And once something like an artillery shell is tracked for a few tens of km, it's very vulnerable.

GPS round costs a few tens of thousands of dollars. I haven't seen the cost for the IIR guided round, which is allegedly meant exactly for antishipping roles, but it's bound to be more expensive. it wouldn't be unreasonable if it ended within the fifty to hundred thousand dollars bracket.

of course those rounds may find a niche role against non combat ships or very lightly equipped ships with lousy radars and ciws - but properly equipped frigates and destroyers won't have much trouble against them. and vulcano rounds, being made for ordinary 127mm naval guns, trade their warheads for propellant (for range) meaning in the end their destructive power is even less than a regular 127mm round's (which weighs some 30 kg).

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About half a year ago, I tried to find out what would be the weight of the shell, I mean the "rocket-shaped dart with a diameter of 90 mm" according to link above, which could hit you if you were under fire of the Vulcano; I think at that time this information was not publicly available. A credible source which I can't find right now :-( claimed the hit would be similar as if it came from a 81 mm mortar shell. Any comments?

Re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

yes it is steerable, it needs to be to be able to hit anything. but those are minute and discreet movements so the shell keeps its trajectory, not any sort of evasive manouvers that might endanger the stability of the shell. plus, since the rounds should be able to be tracked at long ranges since they're flying to high, any possible evasive manouvers will be making the range shorter.

if the round is not evading, like i am assuming here, then interception is already possible with such systems as c-ram, mantis or china's own ld-2000. one could imagine specific ship based systems to be created in the near future, if the need arises, with even better sensors and longer ranged/more precise tracking.





the latter link mentions 30 kg for the whole round, 16 kg for the projectile and 90mm diameter. so one might guess that warhead is around 10ish kg?

don't get me wrong, the antiship variant is still going to be quite useful against non high end targets. various corvettes and multitude of larger radarless ships (tankers, amphibious assault ships etc) would still be very vulnerable to it.

but the main role of vulcano family was always shore bombardement. same goes for ags on zumwalt.

Re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

tphuang said:

I wonder if with these new age extended range munitions on the 127/130/155mm guns, can they be used for OTH anti-ship missions in the future? You can certainly store many more rounds of them and they are far cheaper than anti-ship missiles.

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Yes, they can and will have an anti-shipping capability. The IR guided rounds will allow for that.

However, they are also able to be intercepted. The US and others has been using CIWS software and hardware in ground intercept missions for incoming infantry rounds for some time...down to as small as mortar sheels. So, they will also be vulnerable to interception.

OTOH, they can also be fired very rapidly, particularly if a couple of ships engage, making the ability to shift and hit the multiple incoming rounds on a sustained basis more difficult too.

Play and counter play.

Re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Is it possible if you are firing rounds in quick succession, to make the first couple rounds filled with chaff so when it is intercepted by CIWS it will hopefully mess with the sensors, allowing later rounds to go through?

Re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Totoro said:

yes it is steerable, it needs to be to be able to hit anything. ...

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from the link I put up in my previous post here: "... the need to program the target data into the VULCANO guided ammunitions slows down the process somewhat, reducing the rate of fire to 25 rounds per minute." but, Totoro, shoot those "darts" at will (I guess it'd be easy for you to track tens of them even if they were coming at different trajectories, and also easy to take them all down with your CIWS even if they closed in on you in file with the interval between them longer than the bursts of your CIWS), this could be fun, but ... AShM could be programmed to appear above the horizon at the same LOL

Re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Jura said:

...shoot those "darts" at will (I guess it'd be easy for you to track tens of them even if they were coming at different trajectories, and also easy to take them all down with your CIWS even if they closed in on you in file with the interval between them longer than the bursts of your CIWS), this could be fun, but ...

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Well, perhaps in a video game it would be fun.

But in the real thing, when your life and that of your compatriots on your ship depends on the CIWS being able to make all of those hits...IMHO I do not think it would not be fun at all.