052/052B Class Destroyers

MwRYum

Major
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Ship is wide enough to expand and get hangars for two helicopter. Is it b/c the the lack of helicopters in PLAN that they didn't do that?

It's a combination of both, mostly.

1. In terms of hull, like I've said before the 052 series hull is probably by now running out of room to cramp more stuff into it, the new VLS allows the 052D to pack more punch simply because it's more space-efficient than the cylindrical HHQ-9 cells, and it occupies space previously by the 8 YJ-62 missiles. Provided that all other things unchanged, the 052D still only capable to operate Ka-28 or Z-9 series, both are indeed too small to be potent ASW platform, especially so with China is besieged by strong navies...bigger platforms like the Z-15 or even the rumoured Z-20 would be better by they might be cutting it close in terms of hanger space, though the deck should still be large enough for those 2.

2. Then comes the helicopter problem, as we all know China's weakest link in its aerospace industries is modern engines, the fact that the Russians still got the Chinese defeated in this sector proves everything, since "seeing is believing" so don't come brag about "this model or that" like those in China sites, as long as China can't 100% domestically produce engines in the same category of PWC PT-9 series, bigger and better naval helicopter platforms still a wayward dream. That said, having not manyKa-28 and Z-9 as it is, and better platforms still decades away, the PLAN can still stick to the 1-helicopter arrangement with their proven (?) 052 hull as for now.

However, the future still calls for destroyer design that can serve 2 larger helicopters, as well as more VLS cells for better firepower - until PLAN have CATOBAR CVs, majority of the long range firepower output will have to shouldered by the 052Ds and whatever successor designs that comes after it - with 8 of the 64 cells occupied by YJ-62 ASM (or whatever ASM that has VLS-launch variant) only 56 cells for everything else. Even if and when 052D is served as part of a larger taskforce with a multiple of its sister ships, there's little room it can pack for long range offensive package.
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

64 cell VLS is certainly a good number of cells for AAW, but if it carrys full spectrum of missiles for all roles them 64 cell system is limited

the South Korean "Guardian of the Northern Sky" has a 128 cell VLS, unbelievable! thats 2 x Type 052D!!
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

64 cell VLS is certainly a good number of cells for AAW, but if it carrys full spectrum of missiles for all roles them 64 cell system is limited

the South Korean "Guardian of the Northern Sky" has a 128 cell VLS, unbelievable! thats 2 x Type 052D!!
Well, the Se Jong (KDX III) actually has two separate VLS systems, one 80 cell Mk-41 and a 48 cell S. Korean system for their cruise missiles and ASW VL ASROC missiles (32 - 16 split). The only full 128 VLS that is fully capable for all cells being multi-role are the Ticonderoga cruisers.


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MwRYum

Major
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

64 cell VLS is certainly a good number of cells for AAW, but if it carrys full spectrum of missiles for all roles them 64 cell system is limited

the South Korean "Guardian of the Northern Sky" has a 128 cell VLS, unbelievable! thats 2 x Type 052D!!

Exactly, the 052D is a "multi-role" platform but its loadout is forced to be "mission specific" due to the limited VLS cells, in short a 052D can only undertake air defense or anti-ship or LACM launch ship at any one time, not all at the same time as affordable on USN / RoKN / JMSDF AEGIS DDGs.

Though in the foreseeable future the PLAN will still operate mainly within the 1st island chain (ie. within land-based aircraft support radius) such limitation can be somehow neglated via flexible application of other assets in whatever combination that fits the situation, in the long run though the PLAN will need much larger hull design for its mainstay multi-role DDGs...052 hull has clearly reach the physical limit.
 

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

People tend to compare the Chinese Navy ships to USN ships because they are supposed to be direct competitors in the Pacific region, but in terms of ship layout and armaments, certain Chinese navy ships are better compared to European ships. For example, Jiangwei class ships to MEKO frigates, 054 to La Fayette, 054A to Type 23 Frigate, and Type 052C to Type 45 AAW destroyer.

The 052D is probably closer to recent European destroyers with mk.41 VLS, than the larger Arleigh Burke class (or Korean version of). A lot of progress have been made on ship sensors and munitions, but the ASW helicopter is still lacking. ASW helicopters are probably one of the most expensive helicopter variant due to its limited production numbers and specialized ASW suite. The British Merlin ASW helicopter is said to cost £97 million each in 1998, this is the total program cost (including R&D) divided by 44 helicopters. By 1998 exchange rate, it comes to approx. $160 million USD each. The Japanese Navy ordered 50 SH-60K's and the unit cost on those can't be cheap either.
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

People tend to compare the Chinese Navy ships to USN ships because they are supposed to be direct competitors in the Pacific region, but in terms of ship layout and armaments, certain Chinese navy ships are better compared to European ships. For example, Jiangwei class ships to MEKO frigates, 054 to La Fayette, 054A to Type 23 Frigate, and Type 052C to Type 45 AAW destroyer.

The 052D is probably closer to recent European destroyers with mk.41 VLS, than the larger Arleigh Burke class (or Korean version of). A lot of progress have been made on ship sensors and munitions, but the ASW helicopter is still lacking. ASW helicopters are probably one of the most expensive helicopter variant due to its limited production numbers and specialized ASW suite. The British Merlin ASW helicopter is said to cost £97 million each in 1998, this is the total program cost (including R&D) divided by 44 helicopters. By 1998 exchange rate, it comes to approx. $160 million USD each. The Japanese Navy ordered 50 SH-60K's and the unit cost on those can't be cheap either.

Don't think you can compare Chinese with European navy's, thier direct comparison for practical purpose is JMSDF, South Korea and USN quite simply because that's the neighbourhood
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Exactly, the 052D is a "multi-role" platform but its loadout is forced to be "mission specific" due to the limited VLS cells, in short a 052D can only undertake air defense or anti-ship or LACM launch ship at any one time, not all at the same time as affordable on USN / RoKN / JMSDF AEGIS DDGs.
I disagree. With 64 cells, the Type 052D could easily have 16 cells for cruise missiles, 8 cells for VLS ASW missiles, 8 cells for 32 short range AAW missiles, and 32 cells for long range AAW. This would be an excellent, well balanced and capable load out more capable than most nation's destroyer capability.
 

MwRYum

Major
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

I disagree. With 64 cells, the Type 052D could easily have 16 cells for cruise missiles, 8 cells for VLS ASW missiles, 8 cells for 32 short range AAW missiles, and 32 cells for long range AAW. This would be an excellent, well balanced and capable load out more capable than most nation's destroyer capability.

If they realised their version of ESSM and finalized its quad-pack VLS canister, that is.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Exactly, the 052D is a "multi-role" platform but its loadout is forced to be "mission specific" due to the limited VLS cells, in short a 052D can only undertake air defense or anti-ship or LACM launch ship at any one time, not all at the same time as affordable on USN / RoKN / JMSDF AEGIS DDGs.

Though in the foreseeable future the PLAN will still operate mainly within the 1st island chain (ie. within land-based aircraft support radius) such limitation can be somehow neglated via flexible application of other assets in whatever combination that fits the situation, in the long run though the PLAN will need much larger hull design for its mainstay multi-role DDGs...052 hull has clearly reach the physical limit.

Well that's where 055 is meant to come in, but I don't think the PLAN can afford a fleet of burke sized destroyers.

that said, while the "standard loadout" of an 052D will have to cater to everything from LR SAM, MR SAM, ASW, AShM, and LACM, an 052D operating in tandem with 052Cs can probably forsake their LR SAM load (which would probably make up a large proportion of its VLS cells) to emphasise land attack, etc, given 052Cs aren't exactly an AAW lightweight.


If they realised their version of ESSM and finalized its quad-pack VLS canister, that is.

Even if it's only 8 SR SAMs, you're still looking at a fairly decent overall loadout.
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USN is the only navy in the world who have PAR equipped, near 100 cell ships as their principle surface combatant. Even in JMSDF and ROCN, their aegis equipped ships are considered super high end.
PLAN knows they can't afford the pump out ships like that (and they probably don't need to either -- hell I think USN is a bit top heavy with their 60 odd burkes), so they compromise with 64 cell 052D instead. Ship by ship,052D packs less punch than a sejong or atago, but if 052D outstrips them in production (and by all accounts they probably will), then that gives PLAN a more flexible, potentially larger, force.
Throw in a few high end 055s and you have yourself a much more potent force.


I think what people aren't seeing, is that 052D isn't the "atago/kongo" or "sejong" of the future PLAN, but rather their "akizuki/takanami" or "KDXII". PLAN are still in a transition, modernization period and we should recall that as 052Ds are entering service, 051s will simultaneously be retired. 052D will do to the PLAN's destroyer force what 054A did to the PLAN's frigate composition
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

If they realised their version of ESSM and finalized its quad-pack VLS canister, that is.
As I understand it they deigned it for that...so I have to believe they will go there.

That allows for a very decent load out as I mentioned of 64 total AAW missiles, 16 anti-surface missiles, and 8 VL ASROC type missiles. Great multi-role lad out.
 
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