052/052B Class Destroyers

chuck731

Banned Idiot
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

I personally believe a large DDG should have one of each fore and aft. The Russian Kashtin CIWS is a great solution. Two 30mm CIWS guns and 8 x Anti-missile missiles ready to fire with 32 automatic reloads for each installation.


3036_67_222-kashtan-ciws.jpg


IMHO, probably the best potential for the most effective CIWS weapon system out there


If I recall, Kashtan's missiles uses line of sight command guidance with command transmitted by coded laser. This suggest the missiles on the Kashtan is fair weather only.
 

joshuatree

Captain
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Back to the 052D, I think if they have to have both 730 and FL-3000N, I think the Koreans have a better arrangement to have the RAM forward. In a combat scenario I am not sure there is enough time for the captain of the ship to receive missile alert and maneuver the destoryer so that both 730 and FL-3000N can engage incoming sea-skimming missiles. For USN / Israeli Navy ships sailing everywhere in hostile water, you are right missiles may come from any direction. But for defensive forces like the Korean Navy or the Chinese Navy, they are likely aware of the direction of the enemy fleet. So unless the Chinese Navy are prepared to run away from engagement, the more reliable CIWS should be placed forward.

But that's based on the assumption that 052Ds will never sail into hostile waters where it's the same, incoming can be from any direction. Just operating in the Western Pacific will make the threat omni-directional as its international waters so you can have hostiles from any direction.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

If I recall, Kashtan's missiles uses line of sight command guidance with command transmitted by coded laser. This suggest the missiles on the Kashtan is fair weather only.
Actually, the Kashtan is an all-weather system that uses both radar and/or electro-optronic guidance.

Here's a full description of the Kashtan-M CIWS system:

The Kashtan-M CIWS System is an all-weather close in weapons system (CIWS) that is made up of a command module and up to eight combat modules per system depending on the size of the ship. For example, the Russian Kuznetsov and the Indian Vikramaditya aircraft carriers each have eight combat modules.

The command module's primary function is to detect, track targets, and then distribute the targeting data to the combat modules. It also interrogates any IFF for approaching threats to discriminate targets and make sure that properly emitting IFFs are not engaged. In order to accomplish all of this, the command module has a 3-D rader for target detection, and an all weather, multi-band integrated control system.

Once data for viable targets is handed off to the combat modules, the combat modules then automatically track and engage targets using either radar, electro-optronics (ie. FLIR), or both. The targets are engaged with missiles and/or guns. Missiles for target ranges of 1,500 - 10,000 meters, and guns for ranges of 300 meteres to 5,000 meters.

The missiles used on the Kashtan-M are the Russian 9M311-1E missile which NATO calls the SA-N-11 Grisom. These missiles have a range of 1,500 to 10,000 meters. The missile is steared towards the target using the radar and/or electro-optronic guidance of the combat module. When approaching terminal flight, an active laser and/or radio fuse is triggered. This proximity detector detonates the missile warhead as soon as it is within 5 meters of the target. The 9 kilograms (20 lb), warhead which is a continuous-rod system consisting of 600 mm long 6 to 9 mm diameter rods with a flower-like cross section. There is also a fragmentation outer layer to the warhead made up of steel cubes weighing 2–3 grams each. The detonation causes these layers to form a 360 degree cloud of shrapnel and fragments, over 5 meters in radius, that damage or destroy any missile within its radius.

The guns used on the Kastan-M are the Russian Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-6-30 (designated as the AO-18KD on the Kastan-M system) 30 mm gatlin guns which have a 10,000 round per minute fire rate and a range of 300 to 5,000 meters. This produces a stream of projectiles that are steared into direct contact with the missile by the radar and/or electro-optronic guidance system of the combat module. Upon making contact with the missile, at the extensive combined closing speed, the missile is destroyed. Individually, each of the guns has a higher rate of fire when compared to CIWS guns from other nations such as the GAU-8, the Goalkeeper or the Phalanx system. Along with its very high rate of fire, the heavy, 390 g projectiles are comparable to the depleted uranium rounds used by some of these other systems.

By combining both guns and missiles into one radar and electro-optronic guided CIWS, the opportunity for destruction of incoming targets is heightened over systems that use only one system. Other nations offset this by combining two systems to achieve the same thing. For example, the United States and its allies use combinations of the varuious version of the Standard Missiles for long-range intercepts, the Evolved Sea Sparrow Missiles (ESSM) for medium to short range intercepts, the Rolling Air Frame(RAM) missiles for short range missile engagements,and then back these up with either the 20mm, six-barrelld Phalanx system, or the 30mm six-barreled Gaolkeeper sytem for very close-in gun protection.

Our own NavyReco has
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re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

A guided projectile always has an additional point of failure compared to dumb munitions which just go where they are fired at. Dumb rounds of lesser caliber are also more economical, can be more easily multipurpose, can have more at hand than guided missiles. For those reasons I strongly believe in always having a gun CIWS to back up a missile CIWS.

Because of this I am really quite disappointed with the 052D lacking this redundancy in 360 degree protection, but my disappointment will be based on how many 052Ds actually get produced, maybe it is an interim design and not too many will be churned out before a better design replaces it.
 

chuck731

Banned Idiot
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Actually, the Kashtan is an all-weather system that uses both radar and/or electro-optronic guidance.

Here's a full description of the Kashtan-M CIWS system:

The Kashtan-M CIWS System is an all-weather close in weapons system (CIWS) that is made up of a command module and up to eight combat modules per system depending on the size of the ship. For example, the Russian Kuznetsov and the Indian Vikramaditya aircraft carriers each have eight combat modules.

The command module's primary function is to detect, track targets, and then distribute the targeting data to the combat modules. It also interrogates any IFF for approaching threats to discriminate targets and make sure that properly emitting IFFs are not engaged. In order to accomplish all of this, the command module has a 3-D rader for target detection, and an all weather, multi-band integrated control system.

Once data for viable targets is handed off to the combat modules, the combat modules then automatically track and engage targets using either radar, electro-optronics (ie. FLIR), or both. The targets are engaged with missiles and/or guns. Missiles for target ranges of 1,500 - 10,000 meters, and guns for ranges of 300 meteres to 5,000 meters.

The missiles used on the Kashtan-M are the Russian 9M311-1E missile which NATO calls the SA-N-11 Grisom. These missiles have a range of 1,500 to 10,000 meters. The missile is steared towards the target using the radar and/or electro-optronic guidance of the combat module. When approaching terminal flight, an active laser and/or radio fuse is triggered. This proximity detector detonates the missile warhead as soon as it is within 5 meters of the target. The 9 kilograms (20 lb), warhead which is a continuous-rod system consisting of 600 mm long 6 to 9 mm diameter rods with a flower-like cross section. There is also a fragmentation outer layer to the warhead made up of steel cubes weighing 2–3 grams each. The detonation causes these layers to form a 360 degree cloud of shrapnel and fragments, over 5 meters in radius, that damage or destroy any missile within its radius.

The guns used on the Kastan-M are the Russian Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-6-30 (designated as the AO-18KD on the Kastan-M system) 30 mm gatlin guns which have a 10,000 round per minute fire rate and a range of 300 to 5,000 meters. This produces a stream of projectiles that are steared into direct contact with the missile by the radar and/or electro-optronic guidance system of the combat module. Upon making contact with the missile, at the extensive combined closing speed, the missile is destroyed. Individually, each of the guns has a higher rate of fire when compared to CIWS guns from other nations such as the GAU-8, the Goalkeeper or the Phalanx system. Along with its very high rate of fire, the heavy, 390 g projectiles are comparable to the depleted uranium rounds used by some of these other systems.

By combining both guns and missiles into one radar and electro-optronic guided CIWS, the opportunity for destruction of incoming targets is heightened over systems that use only one system. Other nations offset this by combining two systems to achieve the same thing. For example, the United States and its allies use combinations of the varuious version of the Standard Missiles for long-range intercepts, the Evolved Sea Sparrow Missiles (ESSM) for medium to short range intercepts, the Rolling Air Frame(RAM) missiles for short range missile engagements,and then back these up with either the 20mm, six-barrelld Phalanx system, or the 30mm six-barreled Gaolkeeper sytem for very close-in gun protection.

Our own NavyReco has
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on their site, as does Naval-Technology, Global Security, and others.

Kashtan might be all weather in the sense it always detect the incoming missiles with radar and engage it with radar guided gun fire in poor visibility, but it probably loses the missile component of its capability in poor weather the because the missile relies on receiving command guidance via a coded laser beam sent from the Kashtan mount. The missile's ability to see the command laser signal would decline with decreasing visibility.
 

thunderchief

Senior Member
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

The Kashtan-M CIWS System is an all-weather close in weapons system (CIWS) that is made up of a command module and up to eight combat modules per system depending on the size of the ship. For example, the Russian Kuznetsov and the Indian Vikramaditya aircraft carriers each have eight combat modules.

Small correction : INS Vikramaditya doesn't have any CIWS currently . It supposed to have Israeli Barak-8 , but that missile program run into some problems . When it gets to India , it would have locally produced (under license) AK-630 installed .

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Admiral Kuznetsov doesn't have Kashtan-M , by all accounts it is regular Kashtan with slower reaction time . Russians are not entirely satisfied with this system , so if and when they decide to modernize Kuznetsov instead of upgrade to Kashtan-M they may remove it entirely and switch to something else .

Only ships that almost certainly have Kashtan-M are Indian Talwar-class frigates .
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Small correction : INS Vikramaditya doesn't have any CIWS currently . It supposed to have Israeli Barak-8 , but that missile program run into some problems . When it gets to India , it would have locally produced (under license) AK-630 installed .

Admiral Kuznetsov doesn't have Kashtan-M , by all accounts it is regular Kashtan with slower reaction time.

Only ships that almost certainly have Kashtan-M are Indian Talwar-class frigates .
I am aware that the Virkam will arrive with no air defense, but I believe that there was a proposal to put the Kashtan-M on her...I'll try and find a link to it.

Also, I was reasonably certain that the Kuznetsov had upgraded to the M. Have to look that one up too.

Navyreco, do you have any info on this?
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Kashtan might be all weather in the sense it always detect the incoming missiles with radar and engage it with radar guided gun fire in poor visibility, but it probably loses the missile component of its capability in poor weather the because the missile relies on receiving command guidance via a coded laser beam sent from the Kashtan mount. The missile's ability to see the command laser signal would decline with decreasing visibility.
I work with FLIR type infrared systems and similar communications systems.

One of the great things about them is the ability to see and target in poor weather conditions...rain, fog, snow, smoke, etc. These systems are very well calibrated to find the heat source and things like fog, rain, snow, and even smoke can diminish them, but if the heat source is strong, it shines right on through. We are able to see and tag vulnerabilities and targets relatively well in all of them.

Depending on the wave length you use for the comm, the specific type of seeker system you are using, etc. they work surprisingly well in those conditions.

I would imagine the Kashtan-M System uses technology at least as good as what I have available...but do nmot know for sure on that score.
 

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Interesting to see 730 in front while FL-3000N in the back. It is rare to see 2 different CIWS on the one destoryer / frigate, looks like Chinese Navy is not sure which one to go for yet.
And since FL-3000N is supposed to be able to counter saturated attack while 730 can not, it would probably make more sense to put FL-3000N in front. It gives me a feeling that they are not confident FL-3000N is as reliable as RIM-116 RAM and they trust 730 more.

Assuming that the HQ-10 has 360-degree coverage, having the CIWS gun in the front would protect incoming assault from the front (and side) arc -- assuming that you're facing the enemy. But anyways, outside of USN, AAW destroyers is one of the most expensive ships in the navy and should be treated as a capital asset, with escorts. The Japanese Akizuki-class destroyer is one example, though I'm not sure about the billion dollar price tag for an escort ship.
 
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plawolf

Lieutenant General
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Assuming that the HQ-10 has 360-degree coverage, having the CIWS gun in the front would protect incoming assault from the front (and side) arc -- assuming that you're facing the enemy. But anyways, outside of USN, AAW destroyers is one of the most expensive ships in the navy and should be treated as a capital asset, with escorts. The Japanese Akizuki-class destroyer is one example, though I'm not sure about the billion dollar price tag.

Don't forget the main gun will also have some AA capability. Thus, pairing the '730 with the main gun helps to give the forward arch reach, but also the insurance of the '730 to catch any leakers.

The FN3000 OTOH, is all by itself at the back, so it needs to be able to deal with any threats by itself. As such, I think you put your best CIWS at the back because it won't have any back up, and stick your second best at the front to double up with the main gun.

The other reason for putting the '730 up front is its secondary surface engagement potential. Often, when dealing with small fast moving craft, the main gun is either overkill or not wholly suitable. A gun based CIWS is perfect for such targets, so it makes sense to put your gun based CIWS at the front for obvious reasons.
 
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