052/052B Class Destroyers

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

weig2000 said:

I think one reason that PLAN will not go for the 9KT destroyer is that QC-185 has not matured to the point of fitting on the next-gen Destroyer/Cruiser.

Going directly to the 12KT Cruiser/Destroyer actually makes more sense to me: as well as the roles you laid out below that the 12KT Cruiser would play, I think it could also serve the fleet command role, e.g., in a future amphibious assault group consisting of LHD's, LPD's, cruisers/destroyers/frigates. This would require extra electronic and communication equipment as well as extra staff. All of them require extra space. In addition, I think these cruisers can also play ABM role. 9KT class destroyer is a very incremental step up from the 052D and does not have enough differentiation.

Let's wait and see.

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Why would the PLAN use the QC-185 when it already has the QC-280, especially for a destroyer with a higher displacement? 9,000t AB's use 4 LM2500's, the latest version of which puts out more power than the QC-280's, to speak nothing of QC-185's. The 7,000t 052C/D's use 2 QC-280's and 2 diesels in a CODOG setup. 8-9,000t ships could use the same arrangement, or perhaps in a CODAG configuration, or move straight to 4 QC-280's with COGAG. I'll bet real money a 12,000t PLAN cruiser would this exact arrangement.

As for the 052D, I think this is a similar ship to the 051C, a design stretched to the max, loading weapons it was not originally designed to carry. A ship designed from the keel up to use the new CCL system in the 8-9,000t range is something I would like to see rather than more units of the 052D class.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

tphuang said:

note that he said rumours? That's all it is. It's most likely going to be 8 052D and then the next generation of destroyer/cruiser. But this is all speculations until we see them. As with all PLAN projects, wait and see. Things come along pretty quickly, we don't need to waste time speculating.

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Any official word on the displacement of the 052D yet, or the capabilities of its new PAR system?

Weight and performance specs of the new gun?

Weight and performance of the new missiles in the VLS, or if there actually is a FL-3000N system on the aft helo hangar?

I have not seen clear verification of that FL-3000N yet, though I expect it.

Eight to twelve of these vessels will be a large enhancement to the PLAN...heck, six 052Cs have been a great enhancement to the PLAN's capabilities.

I saw that the 16th 054A was just launched, and I wonder how many more of them, or a follow on 054B (if it truly exists) there will be.

But having these 16 first rate FFGs and what is likely to by 14-18 first rate DDGs will really enhance the PLAN's capabilities. Adding the 4 Sovs the Two 052Bs and 2 051Cs into the mix helps, but the real meat are the 052C/Ds when it comes to their growing DDG force.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

052C/D, CODOG, 2 x QC-280 + 2 diesels
9-10KT Destroyer, CODAG, 4 x QC-185
12KT Cruiser, CODAG, 4 x QC-280

For the 9-10KT Destroyer, 2 x QC-280 + 2 diesels would be underpowered; 4 x QC-280 would be overpowered.

Ideally, 9,000t AB class would be better than the 6-7,000 class 052 C/D for AAW, but it looks like PLAN will batch produce 052C/D for their mainstay AAW destroyers. In that case, going to the 12KT cruiser would be better, given that the 9KT destroyer is not enough of a step-up and the ideal power plant for that class (QC-185) is probably not ready yet.

Purely my speculation and reasoning.

Mysterre said:

Why would the PLAN use the QC-185 when it already has the QC-280, especially for a destroyer with a higher displacement? 9,000t AB's use 4 LM2500's, the latest version of which puts out more power than the QC-280's, to speak nothing of QC-185's. The 7,000t 052C/D's use 2 QC-280's and 2 diesels in a CODOG setup. 8-9,000t ships could use the same arrangement, or perhaps in a CODAG configuration, or move straight to 4 QC-280's with COGAG. I'll bet real money a 12,000t PLAN cruiser would this exact arrangement.

As for the 052D, I think this is a similar ship to the 051C, a design stretched to the max, loading weapons it was not originally designed to carry. A ship designed from the keel up to use the new CCL system in the 8-9,000t range is something I would like to see rather than more units of the 052D class.

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re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

I think the 4 Sovs are pretty old ships probably not worthy of long range deployments, China just panicked onto buying them when tensions were high with Taiwan issue, good at the time because Chinese shipbuilding was not so matured but compared to modern DDG in the class of Type 052C/D they are cannon fodder

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

asif iqbal said:

I think the 4 Sovs are pretty old ships probably not worthy of long range deployments, China just panicked onto buying them when tensions were high with Taiwan issue, good at the time because Chinese shipbuilding was not so matured but compared to modern DDG in the class of Type 052C/D they are cannon fodder

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I am not sure of their condition...but I know as designed and deployed by the Russians, they were very decent ships. If they have been maintained well, there is no reason why they cannot deploy anywhere, and especially anywhere out to the 2nd island chain.

But they were made by the Russians to be blue water vessels, and they have a very significant and decent multi-mission weapons load out. Great Anti-surface, very good close-in AAW, and with the helo, very decent ASW too. The 956E is particularly good, IMHO.

They would make a decent part of any SAG or ARG. Depending on the mission, a decent addition to a CSG too...but most of those carrier escort missions will probably involve Type 052C/D and Type 054A escorts.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

No doubt good warships but question is how well are they integrated into the rest of the PLAN fleet? Also when you have growing number of DDG like Type 052C and Type 052D they are in a different class now, I mean when was the last time Sovs made international visit, unless China has upgraded the software etc I would think they are just over armed heavy hitters with little targets to hit

Knowing PLAN they will probably still serve for another 3 decades!!

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

weig2000 said:

052C/D, CODOG, 2 x QC-280 + 2 diesels
9-10KT Destroyer, CODAG, 4 x QC-185
12KT Cruiser, CODAG, 4 x QC-280

For the 9-10KT Destroyer, 2 x QC-280 + 2 diesels would be underpowered; 4 x QC-280 would be overpowered.

Ideally, 9,000t AB class would be better than the 6-7,000 class 052 C/D for AAW, but it looks like PLAN will batch produce 052C/D for their mainstay AAW destroyers. In that case, going to the 12KT cruiser would be better, given that the 9KT destroyer is not enough of a step-up and the ideal power plant for that class (QC-185) is probably not ready yet.

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I think an 8,000t destroyer with 64 CCL's is plenty enough to serve in the traditional destroyer role, and easily powered by a CODOG 2 GT + 2 diesel setup. Remember that the 9,800t Ticonderoga class cruiser was originally driven by 4 1st generation LM2500's generating 16MW each for a total of 64MW. 2 QC280's together generate 56MW, only 12% less, not bad considering that they are driving 052C/D ships that displace almost 3,000t less. So in fact 052C/D's have a higher power/weight ratio than Tico's do, and so would a "055" class displacing 8,000t with the same propulsion arrangement.

weig2000 said:

12KT Cruiser, CODAG, 4 x QC-280

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You must be referring to COGAG here because the "D" in CODAG refers to diesel. Since you have 4 GT's, there can be no CODAG configuration with 4 x QC-280 GT's. IMO a COGAG setup with 4 QC-280's is a perfect match for a 12,000t cruiser.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

asif iqbal said:

I think the 4 Sovs are pretty old ships probably not worthy of long range deployments, China just panicked onto buying them when tensions were high with Taiwan issue, good at the time because Chinese shipbuilding was not so matured but compared to modern DDG in the class of Type 052C/D they are cannon fodder

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IMO the value for the 4 sovs buy lies mainly in the tech that PLAN were able to get out of them at the time, from missile system to radar sensor to the 130mm gun to the helo etc. Kind of like one bundle of semi tech transfer.

Now the PLAN pretty much has better stuff in all these fields but still the raise in standards of PLAN due to the ships at the time is still considerable.

The Sovs are ships that the PLAN has eaten inside out, like the Su-27 purchase.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Jeff Head said:

Any official word on the displacement of the 052D yet, or the capabilities of its new PAR system?

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Well current consensus about SAPARS/Type 346 aboard 052C is an S band AESA with 450+ km maximum range.

Weight and performance specs of the new gun?

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We know it is 130mm and based on AK-130 being titled as PJ-38.

On wikipedia there is a frighteningly detailed write up regarding the PJ-38 and that it should have capability to fire a variety of smart and ER munitions (which is to be expected, apparently land attack missions was a factor for having a larger calibre gun -- ER and smart munitions to take advantage of the larger gun is logical).

Weight and performance of the new missiles in the VLS, or if there actually is a FL-3000N system on the aft helo hangar?

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No one quite knows what to expect what missiles will be fielded in the new VLS. But from the MIL-STD that was posted a while ago it should be able to have both hot and cold launch capability, and the standard multi role missiles like SAM, AShM, VL ASW weapons, LACM. There was also mention of a ballistic missile launch provision for the CCL VLS.
In the MIL STD it also made mention of quad packing.

I think we may see a variety of existing missiles (HQ-9, YJ-82/62, CJ-10, HQ-16) being integrated upon the VLS, and/or weapons such as quad packable SAMs, ASW missiles (if they don't already exist aboard 054A), future long range SAM and AShMs will be in the pipeline.

One new missile I expect to see aboard 052D's VLS is the sky dragon/DK-10 SAM. It is an active radar guided 50km range SAM that is basically a surface launched PL-12 with a larger motor and smaller diameter. It looks a prime candidate to quad pack on the new VLS. Basically it is a chinese version of ESSM, only it offers active radar homing rather than ESSM's SARH.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

asif iqbal said:

I think the 4 Sovs are pretty old ships probably not worthy of long range deployments, China just panicked onto buying them when tensions were high with Taiwan issue, good at the time because Chinese shipbuilding was not so matured but compared to modern DDG in the class of Type 052C/D they are cannon fodder

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I think Sovs still have a role in PLAN. Their weight class almost puts them in the cruiser category.

Their guns offer potent shore bombardment capabilities, and while the moskit missile may be overhyped against potent taskgroups like USN CVBGs, they are still very formidable missile systems. With 64 total Shtil SAMs aboard each ship with two one arm launchers each, they are still better than anything below 052B.

Their only real limitation is that they don't have chinese communications equipment, so can't properly command other chinese ships. And their steam turbines aren't as effective as gas turbines. But at the end of the day these are four 8000+ t DDGs with a heavy anti surface and anti air warload that most navies would love to have