052/052B Class Destroyers

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

SinoSoldier said:

The paper mentioned it as a destroyer.

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Now, let me ask a simple question here, why is everybody so bought into this Type 058 theory? We don't even know the source of the info and as far as I know the prediction that we saw isn't the only one floating around in the internet.

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well i think there are certain things we can use our common sense with

for example, the 8 Type 052Cs and 8 Type 052Ds

for Type 052Cs they will be numbered 150-153, 154-157, all going to the East Sea Fleet

for Type 052Ds they will be numbered 117-120, 170-173, 4 Type 052Ds going to North Sea Fleet (117-120) and 4 Type 052Ds going to South Sea Fleet (170-173)

now its all just "theory" but a little more understanding and little thought process leads up to a common information pool, and thats also where Type 058 comes into it is well

personally i believe the list posted by A. Man is credible and i have no reason to doubt it, infact even before that list was posted there was speculation about much of the info on it, which was later confirmed by that list

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Jeff Head said:

I'm counting on several more Type 052Cs, and believe they are very decent vessels for the PLAN and represent a huge increase in capability.

I expect there will be a follow-on at some point, but could easily seeing the PLAN having between 8-12 52Cs before they do. From a maintenance and logistics standpoint, particularly as more high value LPDs and CVs are produced, they will need them and the more that work the same way and provide good defenses, the better...and cheaper.

Whether the follow on will be a 52D or some other designation, time will tell. I believe we are going to have to see it coming down the ways before we really will know.

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Well they certainly need to finish the construction of the present batch in order to have enough for its east and south fleets. The PLA prefers smooth upgrades rather than incremental ones, which is why I expect the 052C to eventually evolve into a larger ship that still retains its hull. I simply don't understand why they would make the new destroyer the same size as the present 052C, and then make a drastic jump up 3000 tons.

---------- Post added at 05:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:31 PM ----------

Bltizo said:

:dunnolol:
I don't think anyone is "so bought into" 058, like you said there are many such predictions that anyone can write up on a whim. I think why I'm giving it credence is that it is so comprehensive, and answers a question or two which we had regarding future fleet composition (namely what will follow 054A, and the question of future CVBG "shields" i.e.: cruisers).

Personally I'm at the stage of belief where I wouldn't be surprised if by 2020 no cruiser class emerges, but absent any other long term projection, I would keep this one at the back of my mind.

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I wonder if anyone would have access to such a complex list. And even if they did I wonder if anyone had the guts to post them on the Internet in light of tea sessions.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

SinoSoldier said:

Well they certainly need to finish the construction of the present batch in order to have enough for its east and south fleets. The PLA prefers smooth upgrades rather than incremental ones, which is why I expect the 052C to eventually evolve into a larger ship that still retains its hull. I simply don't understand why they would make the new destroyer the same size as the present 052C, and then make a drastic jump up 3000 tons.

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Well the new 10k ton ddg/cg will be built concurrently with 052D, going by the chart. It's not a stretch to claim they are meant to complement each other.
PLAN does prefer evolutionary improvements rather than revolutionary, and 052D is expected to follow that trend from 052C -- I'm not disputing that. But they have to start work on a new clean sheet hull with room for new technologies eventually (namely for electronics and radar -- just look at the flight iii burke fiasco). And if they intend to field USN style CVBGs (which I think we can agree, that is their long term goal), larger surface combatants with the necessary C&C assets and extra missiles are a must.

I wonder if anyone would have access to such a complex list. And even if they did I wonder if anyone had the guts to post them on the Internet in light of tea sessions.

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We get predictions on naval shipbuilding/plan orbat all the time, some of them prove to be accurate, some not so accurate. This particular prediction isn't exactly unprecedented, it's only one of the more far sighted ones.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

kwaigonegin said:

I think it's definitely within the realm of possibility for PLAN to employ a long range supersonic AshM in the near future. I know the SS-N 22 (on Sovremenny ) doesn't have a range anywhere close to that but I don't think it's too difficult for them to make a missile with extended range even if it means some speed sacrifice. Remember that the PLAN had significant input and was a partner in developing the 3M-80MBE/SS-N 22 which has a speed of over 3 Mach at sea level and actually has a tad longer range than the typical Russian SS-N 22.. Not unfeasible for them to develop a 300 miles range Mach 1.5 or 2 missile.
Anyway just my humble opinion.

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Antiship missiles do not need to be supersonic all the way in. They really only need it in the terminal phase, the last 30-40km of flight where they will be directly visible to their target. That way you can save the fuel to increase range.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Since it's been speculated on Chinese forum for a long time that 052C will stop at 6, I'm going to wait to see what the 7th one actually looks like. So far, we haven't seen more than the bow of the ship, so let's wait.

Anyway this is an interesting article describing the upgrades done to 052 ships, more specifically 112.

联演前，“哈尔滨”舰刚刚完成了中期改造。舰长石磊透露，这次改造重点集中在信息化上，与之前相比，它的性能上了一个新台阶。

　　在舰艏主炮前方，更换了射程更远、威力更大的新型火箭深弹发射装置。舰体中部原来的单体烟筒，变成了带抑红外装置的双体烟筒，后面的远程反舰导弹数量也有所增加。舰体中后方上部，更换了新式雷达。舰体后部的副炮被取消，在原有位置加装了新型防空反导武器。

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It says newer type of rocket launchers (with longer range and more power) were installed in front and aft of main gun. The smoke stack was modified from one part to two parts with reduced infrared signature. The long range AShm at back increased in number (I didn't see this). At middle to back of ship, newer radar were installed. At the back, secondary guns were removed and installed with new type of AAW weapon.

　　在“哈尔滨”舰内部，最大的变化莫过于使用了新型指挥控制系统，它能快速处理来自岸、海、空、天等多维空间的数据信息。舰内的一些空间进行了重新分隔，还多了不少娱乐设施，如电视。在离青岛直线距离约５０海里的演习海域，舰上能收到国内各个卫视节目，信号清晰、稳定

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The largest change is the usage of new combat system. It can quickly process information from shore, sea, air and space. They also improved the space arrangement inside ship and installed more entertainment like TV. It can receive the domestic channels when within 50 nm of the Qingdao shore.

作战舰艇既要尽量携带武器装备，还要考虑机动性。 “哈尔滨”舰最宽的地方只有１５米。长期在陆地上生活，刚上舰最直观的感觉就是狭窄。舰内的通道基本只能让一人通行，上面和左右两边布满了阀门、管线和设备箱，记者伸手就能够到棚顶。兵舱内的床铺有３层，坐在铺上根本直不起腰。连接各甲板的，则是一人上下都费劲又非常陡的梯子。开在地面的水密舱门遍布着伸出的把手和防水钢条。行走在舰内，听到最多的就是提醒

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It says 112 is only 15 m wide in the widest area. There is only one hallway inside the ship. There are compartments, equipment box and lines on top and left and right. The sailor cabins have 3 levels of bed. When you sit on your bunk, you can't straighten your back. The staircase between deck is very steep.

哈尔滨”舰主炮的口径为１００毫米，有经验的舰员告诉记者，如果没有耳塞，近距离看主炮射击时最好找面巾纸塞上耳朵、张开嘴巴，否则耳朵会被震得几天都响个不停。尽管如法炮制，但站在主炮后面的驾驶平台上，声音仍是大大超出了记者的预期，更明显感受到了每发炮弹的出膛给几千吨船体带来的晃动。

　　在“哈尔滨”舰刚刚完成的中期改造中，更新了这套主炮系统，使它精确打击海上目标能力、火力支援岸上部队能力都得到了极大增强。主炮的下面，是一套复杂的炮弹装填和控制装置，操炮人员完全处在船体的中间位置，依靠雷达和光学仪器来确定目标

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It says the main gun is a 100 mm gun. Need ear plugs when the main gun is firing off and the ship shakes when firing off. This is a new main gun system that has more accurate strike ability against sea target and supporting land bombardments. There is a complex ammunition storage and control unit below. It uses radar and EO to provide targeting.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

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re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

tphuang said:

At middle to back of ship, newer radar were installed. At the back, secondary guns were removed and installed with new type of AAW weapon.
.

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Hmm...FN-3000L perhaps?

That would be a huge improvement. Probably not, but guess we'll see.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Jeff Head said:

Hmm...FN-3000L perhaps?

That would be a huge improvement. Probably not, but guess we'll see.

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They're talking about type 730. There are pictures of 052 112 around lol... it participated in the naval exercise with the russian navy a few days ago.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Bltizo said:

And if they intend to field USN style CVBGs (which I think we can agree, that is their long term goal)......

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We do not all agree. The structuring of armed forces is determined by the interest and the political philosophy of a country. The US has the philosophy of pursuing freedom all over the world with which they give themselves the right to intervene in any country, whether satellite or non-satellite. This goes much further than the infamous Brezhnev doctrine. Think for example of the US interventions in Lebanon in 1958 and 1983. It ever included encouraging the South Vietnamese dictator Ngo Dinh Diem to avoid the free and fair election that would have reunited North and South Viet Nam in 1956. China on the other hand pronounces itself in favor of the sovereignty of states in accordance with the Westphalian peace treaties of 1648 and the Charter of the United Nations. This will be not only because China is militarily much weaker ( after all the UK is building two huge warships specifically designed to be able to invade countries all over the world ), but also because recent interventions by the US lead to failed states ( Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Libya ) sometimes combined with long and expensive wars ( Iraq, Afghanistan ).
The US CVBGs are set up to support major operations against countries which will not be part of a Chinese CVBG's role. They will have the much more limited task to protect freedom of navigation.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

delft said:

We do not all agree. The structuring of armed forces is determined by the interest and the political philosophy of a country. The US has the philosophy of pursuing freedom all over the world with which they give themselves the right to intervene in any country, whether satellite or non-satellite. This goes much further than the infamous Brezhnev doctrine. Think for example of the US interventions in Lebanon in 1958 and 1983. It ever included encouraging the South Vietnamese dictator Ngo Dinh Diem to avoid the free and fair election that would have reunited North and South Viet Nam in 1956. China on the other hand pronounces itself in favor of the sovereignty of states in accordance with the Westphalian peace treaties of 1648 and the Charter of the United Nations. This will be not only because China is militarily much weaker ( after all the UK is building two huge warships specifically designed to be able to invade countries all over the world ), but also because recent interventions by the US lead to failed states ( Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Libya ) sometimes combined with long and expensive wars ( Iraq, Afghanistan ).
The US CVBGs are set up to support major operations against countries which will not be part of a Chinese CVBG's role. They will have the much more limited task to protect freedom of navigation.

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Perhaps for the short term, yes. But in the long term I see USN styled CVBGs. That doesn't mean they have to be operated to intervene in countries internationally, but there will certainly be occasions in future where chinese (likely economic) interests will be threatened and only carriers can be able to solve it. Neighboring navies, IN and USN won't be declining any time soon and comprehensive escorts will be required to defend against future threats like that.