00X/004 future nuclear CATOBAR carrier thread

MarKoz81

Junior Member
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According to the latest (or one of the latest) paid 察话会Au podcast by the Guancha Trios (which, unfortunately, I have no access to - Courtesy of @vincent for the news), particularly from Yankee:

1. China is indeed building two proper aircraft carriers simultaneously right now (not including the currently-under-sea-trials CV-18 Fujian);
2. One carrier is conventionally-powered (presumably CV-19), while the other is nuclear-powered (presumably CVN-20); and
3. The nuclear-powered carrier will be much bigger in order to accommodate the operations of future 6th-gen carrier-based fighters (presumably naval variant of the J-XDS).

(Phrases of my own are in Italic)

If this is confirmed I would suspect that CV-19 will be a sister ship to CV-18. This would allow for the carriers to be separated by fleet: CV-16 and CV-17 likely in North Sea and CV-18 and CV-19 in South Sea. With two ships in rotation one is always in readiness (aka: two is one, one is none) and similarity in class will be beneficial for maintaining crew readiness and streamlining training.

It would also match the four 055 in each fleet. Two carriers each with two cruisers

I don't think putting one CATOBAR and one STOBAR carrier in each fleet makes any sense. Despite common roots they are not comparable tactically. I also don't think North Sea Fleet needs a full carrier. Right now it would be wasted on that theater.

BTW I don't know how reliable Chinese Wiki is but Eastern Sea Fleet has Sichuan (076) listed along with two 075. No carriers for that fleet is practical for as long as eastern shore of Taiwan is not under PLA control.

As for the CVN-20 - Much bigger relative to Fujian or Ford? I don't think we can know for sure, for the time being...

"Much bigger" can be used only in comparison with Fujian. It is not rational to expect that it would be significantly larger than Ford which already approaches practical limits for this class of ships. Fujian has 316m deck while Ford has 333m. Full displacement is (speculative) 85 000t to 100 000t. Ford is therefore 20% larger in terms of displacement and 5% larger in terms of deck length. This is a similar change in size as between Fujian and Shandong. I think that would be more than enough.

CV-18 Fujian is by no means a perfect design - In fact, still some distances away.

That's putting it lightly when you consider that a supercarrier is currently the default design for any high-tempo operations. Fujian is barely making the cut there. It's the "we do not grant you the rank of master" type of admission to the supercarrier council.

The most important element is the catapult because this allows the use of full payloads. So unlike Liaoning and Shandong the fixed wing element will be fully utilised. But that is it.

The true value of Fujian lies in it being the first carrier fully designed and built in China.

Some of the advancements should include the following (or perhaps a wishlist):

The most crucial advancement is building Fujian without all the errors that Fujian has ;)

It's rarely discussed due to the political nature of military procurement, but naval shipbuilding is very much like civil engineering, in that the "final" design reveals so many problems during construction that the resulting design may as well be a different ship. Personally I enjoy hearing those stories because they are fascinating as to how limited our understanding of the design is before it is actually realised, even with all the CAD involved in all stages of the process.

And that too will be a crucial test for 004/CV-20 - if the shipyards learn how to self-correct based on CV-18 and CV-19. This is very important for any large scale production. Yes, PLAN has demonstrated that it can achieve that on smaller vessels but it needs to do so on the really challenging designs - carriers and nuclear submarines.

Backward-compatibility requirements will result in the J-XDSH being constrained in terms of physical size and weight, which will introduce all the related limitations onto its operational capabilities (particularly internal volume, which directly impacts computing systems, power generation, combat range, payload capacity etc).

This is something that the USN must deal with, considering that the USN is to operate significant portions of their Nimitz CVNs until the 2050s, with every Nimitz having a 50-year service life (CVN-77 George H.W. Bush was commissioned in 2009).

The PLAN, meanwhile, are still at the beginning stages of their carrier fleet expansion efforts. Hence, the PLAN is afforded the luxury of going big from the get-go. Very fortunate, I'd say.

I don't think this is going to be that much of a problem. There is so much of a safety margin added to everything that is intended for combat use that it would take something genuinely non-standard, whether in size or maintenance requirements, to introduce problems. The carriers are designed to deal with aircraft that haven't flown, have flown, have crash-landed but retained usability and those that have crashed and are only good for spares. And all of that has to be taken care in the utter chaos of an ongoing military operation.

In short neither USN nor PLAN will run into too much of a problem, outside of core requirements like the catapult. More space, less space will just result in a few more or fewer aircraft. And it's not where the lines will be drawn.

Again, people who talk about carrier operations really lack the context of just how the carrier operations that they are familiar with differ from the carrier operations that the ships were designed for.

USN bombing Iraq or Syria is not the intended use for supercarriers. The carriers were designed for providing long-range offensive and defensive power against Soviet naval task forces in the projected battle for the North Atlantic. They were the very long-range anti ship missiles (two-stage: first stage reusable, second stage expendable) as well as very long-range anti-missile missiles (two-stage again).
From then the ranges have only increased.

Nobody in their right mind would ever decide to park a CSG next to a Soviet naval base so it is absurd to expect that this would be a present-day consideration. What the think-tankers and other talking heads say is largely irrelevant for the actual planning that the navy does.
 

Dante80

Junior Member
Registered Member
Yeahh, by 2030 I think China's official defence budget may increase to $600B or roughly 2.4% of nominal GDP

I think 2.5 to 3% is ideal during peace time

Also the most important part is the effectiveness of every $ spent... I think China may be 3-5X more effective of every $/RMB spent than the US
China is probably not going to change its military budget any time soon. Each year for at least the last decade we see an increase at around the same amount as the national GDP rises. Leaving military expenditure at around the 1,7% mark.

There is no indication of that national strategy changing, at least for the time being.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
"Much bigger" can be used only in comparison with Fujian. It is not rational to expect that it would be significantly larger than Ford which already approaches practical limits for this class of ships. Fujian has 316m deck while Ford has 333m. Full displacement is (speculative) 85 000t to 100 000t. Ford is therefore 20% larger in terms of displacement and 5% larger in terms of deck length. This is a similar change in size as between Fujian and Shandong. I think that would be more than enough.

The Ford is the practical size limit for the US Navy because of the existing shipyard infrastructure.
An example would the graving dock at Newport News Shipbuilding where US carriers are built. It is 340 metres long so the Nimitz and Ford barely fit. And I don't see the US building out a larger shipbuilding dock.

In comparison, there are multiple Chinese shipyards capable of building 400 metre long ships. That includes Jiangnan, Dalian, Waigaoqiao, GSI, etc

Given what we've seen of the J-36, we can expect a Chinese 6th gen naval aircraft to be as large as practically possible, with the engines and the carrier size/deck being the key limitations. My **guess** is a twin-engine design with MTOW of 40-45 tonnes, somewhat heavier than a J-20.

And given that carriers have a 50 year lifespan and the trend towards ever larger aircraft, how big is a future 7th Gen going to be? Presumably they would be in service circa 2040-2045, when the carriers are early in their service life.

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So it just makes sense to build to as large a "standard" as possible, right at the beginning.

As per Yankee's podcast below, if a 150K tonne carrier is 1.8-2x more combat effective than a 100K Nimitz-type, but the cost is only slightly/moderately higher, it makes a lot of sense to go with 150K tonne carriers as the future China standard.

As per Lethe's previous post, the US Navy estimated that a scaled up Nimitz which is 130K tonnes displacement would be 362-370metres long. So a 150K Chinese carrier should be comfortably less than 400metres long and be capable of fitting into existing shipyard infrastructure.

And I would also point out that the Chinese Navy has previously had a surface warship design philosophy of simultaneously ordering 1 proven design and 1 more speculative design to test, before committing to a design.


Some key points from Yankee & Co.'s podcast on what China's next aircraft carrier could be, simply-put:
- Fujian, despite deserving the title of "supercarrier", is too small to be sufficient. 004 and subsequent CVs definitely will be larger.
- There are sayings (source undetermined) where while a 150 thousand-ton supercarrier is likely to have slightly/moderately higher price tag than a 100 thousand-ton supercarrier, it is expected to have the combat effectiveness that is likely to be 1.8 or even 2 times that of the latter (namely, greater cost-effectiveness).
- Nuclear propulsion for future Chinese supercarriers is an unavoidable path (conventional propulsion has pretty much reached its celling for large-sized carrier propulsion with Fujian).
- The number of nuclear reactors onboard the Nimitz-class decided back in the 1960s (two A4Ws per hull) is more of a political (and financial) decision instead of an engineering/technical decision (as initially, they were meant to be powered by four A3Ws per hull).
- China can follow the US with regarding to the development of nuclear-powered supercarriers, but shouldn't do it "to the Tee".
 
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para80

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Its worth noting the new drydock at Sanya, which presumably was built specifically to enable maintenance up to carrier size is approx 365x80 metres. I think its unlikely PLAN would want a new class of carriers blowing past those dimensions (and you do need some slack in sizd so you can perform certain work in that dock) or alternatively they would have built a larger dock from the start.

While I presume they will approach or slightly exceed Ford class etc for size, I suspect a 50% larger etc design is implausible for this and other reasons (such as draft for being acommodated at naval bases etc).
 

AndrewS

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Its worth noting the new drydock at Sanya, which presumably was built specifically to enable maintenance up to carrier size is approx 365x80 metres. I think its unlikely PLAN would want a new class of carriers blowing past those dimensions (and you do need some slack in sizd so you can perform certain work in that dock) or alternatively they would have built a larger dock from the start.

While I presume they will approach or slightly exceed Ford class etc for size, I suspect a 50% larger etc design is implausible for this and other reasons (such as draft for being acommodated at naval bases etc).

Good point.

But if we look to the US Navy, they have 18 drydocks capable of handling nuclear carriers. The US carrier fleet peaked at 15 during the cold war.

Of those 18 drydocks, 3 are planned to handle the Ford-class.

This implies that the Chinese Navy will need to build new, additional drydocks.

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And we're in the middle of a large Naval expansion which already meant the construction of new piers at naval bases.
So if they have to build even more piers, they can just build them longer so they reach deeper waters.
 
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Sinnavuuty

Senior Member
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Good point.

But if we look to the US Navy, they have 18 drydocks capable of handling nuclear carriers. The US carrier fleet peaked at 15 during the cold war.

Of those 18 drydocks, 3 are planned to handle the Ford-class.

This implies that the Chinese Navy will need to build new, additional drydocks.
The US has only two dry docks capable of handling CVNs:

Dry Dock 8 - Norfolk Naval Shipyard
Dry Dock 6 - Puget Sound Naval Shipyard
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
The US has only two dry docks capable of handling CVNs:

Dry Dock 8 - Norfolk Naval Shipyard
Dry Dock 6 - Puget Sound Naval Shipyard

2019 article below where they say there are 18 drydocks available in the US?

news.usni.org/2019/08/30/navy-to-update-2-dry-docks-to-accommodate-ford-class-carriers

EDIT. Note that in the US, we can see that the if a larger ship is justified, the drydocks will be upgraded to handle it.
 
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ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
So it just makes sense to build to as large a "standard" as possible, right at the beginning.

As per Yankee's podcast below, if a 150K tonne carrier is 1.8-2x more combat effective than a 100K Nimitz-type, but the cost is only slightly/moderately higher, it makes a lot of sense to go with 150K tonne carriers as the future China standard.

Ehh. Now that I recall back:

To be fair to the Guancha Trios, the points which they stated regarding the future sizes of the Chinese CV/CVNs is more of a "Since our original discussion may have touched upon this topic which our followers would be interested in, then let's have some (light/brief) discussions while we're at it" nature, which contrasts to what they actually did leading up to the first flights of the J-XDC and J-XDS, which is more of a "Yeah, I know what you guys really do want to hear given the present development of XXX, so let me tease you guys bit by bit with the information/news related to the XXX based on what our sources have told us" nature.

That's the subtle yet somewhat notable differences which I've noticed.
 

Sinnavuuty

Senior Member
Registered Member
2019 article below where they say there are 18 drydocks available in the US?

news.usni.org/2019/08/30/navy-to-update-2-dry-docks-to-accommodate-ford-class-carriers
There are 18 dry docks, but only two are capable of handling CVNs. The 18 dry docks at the four public shipyards vary in size, length, and width. For example, not all 18 dry docks are capable of handling SSNs; of the 18 dry docks, only 12 are capable of handling Virginia-class SSNs; of those 12 dry docks, only 7 docks are capable of handling Virginia Block V.
EDIT. Note that in the US, we can see that the if a larger ship is justified, the drydocks will be upgraded to handle it.
No one doubts this. But the US Navy's shipyard infrastructure is critically outdated and insufficient to meet the current and future demands of a global fleet that is planned to expand to include more units, including a large fleet of nuclear submarines. There is also the certification of
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.
 

00CuriousObserver

New Member
Registered Member
Speaking out of ignorance here, but wouldn't the cost to expand the dry dock and other infrastructure be (quite) minor relatively, especially when compared to the cost of a large CVN?
 
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