Chinese semiconductor industry

[ZeEa5KPul]

Do not think the Europeans are a monolithic group of braindead people just following America's directions.

What evidence is there to the contrary?

If you think that way, you haven't traveled to enough places in Europe.

The places one needs to travel in Europe to understand who makes decisions are the US military bases dotted all over Europe. So long as this military occupation of Europe continues, Europe does not have the sovereignty to make independent foreign policy decisions. That the US is gracious enough to let European countries run their own postal services is irrelevant.

 

[tphuang]

What evidence is there to the contrary?

The places one needs to travel in Europe to understand who makes decisions are the US military bases dotted all over Europe. So long as this military occupation of Europe continues, Europe does not have the sovereignty to make independent foreign policy decisions. That the US is gracious enough to let European countries run their own postal services is irrelevant.

So, how many countries in Europe have you been to?

If Europe is in capable of making independence decisions, then how do you explain their refusal to participate in the Iraq war? Why do you think America was spying on European leaders (according to Snowden). Why do you think there was such a huge fracture between Europeans and America during the Trump administration?

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

So, how many countries in Europe have you been to?

How many should I have been to? All the evidence I see indicates they're typical McDemocracy franchises. I have a completely off-topic question but I think it gets to the heart of an important issue: How come there's isn't a single democracy that's hostile to the US? You'd think there'd be one if only by chance, but every single one is just a carbon copy of the US philosophically and rhetorically. Mocking it as McDemocracy is unfair - there's a lot more variation between McDonald's restaurants.

If Europe is in capable of making independence decisions, then how do you explain their refusal to participate in the Iraq war? Why do you think America was spying on European leaders (according to Snowden). Why do you think there was such a huge fracture between Europeans and America during the Trump administration?

Some lovers' tiffs don't imply that Europe is sovereign and independent. When I see Europeans expelling American soldiers from their territory - by force of arms if need be - I'll reassess my opinion. Until then...

 

[ansy1968]

Of course you have to achieve self sufficiency as soon as possible. That's exactly what I said. However, that does not mean you cannot cooperate with Europeans on something. Just make sure you are able to produce everything yourself when called to do so. When you can negotiate from a point of strength, you can dictate the term of agreement. Do not think the Europeans are a monolithic group of braindead people just following America's directions. If you think that way, you haven't traveled to enough places in Europe. And if you think America is capable of always dictating Europe, you have not spent enough time in America.

Having more friends and less adversaries around the world is always a good thing. When China does have its semiconductor supply chain in order, it can use that as a tool in its diplomacy.

@tphuang Sir I may disagree, Trust had been broken and with it the goodwill. And IF China is able to produce the same equipment (even though less capable) then what is there to cooperate, they had become rivals. The European had the advantage now with EUVL monopoly, BUT within 2 years time, that monopoly with be shattered as China without a doubt will be able to produce an equivalent. Adversity and Necessity is the mother of invention, By refusing to sell to China by flimsy excuses they lost the Chinese market forever.

 

[Abominable]

So, how many countries in Europe have you been to?

If Europe is in capable of making independence decisions, then how do you explain their refusal to participate in the Iraq war? Why do you think America was spying on European leaders (according to Snowden). Why do you think there was such a huge fracture between Europeans and America during the Trump administration?

Europe didn't oppose the US invasion of Iraq, they opted out of it. No different to the UK opting out of Vietnam.

If Europe was truly independent, it would be applying the same level of pressure on America back then as it is on Russia today.

 

[ansy1968]

I dont want rumor. I want real progress with evidence. Where is N+1,2,3,4,5 they talked about since 2 years ago. Atleast SMIC should do 12nm for small progress instead stuck and stay 14nm like forever. Forget about 7nm or euv just do atleast 12 nm.

@Annihilation98 Happy to comply and an excerpt for your perusal.

The model is not without caveats though: a modern fab can easily cost well over $10 billion and municipalities may not be inclined to invest half of that sum. As a result, SMIC has to apply to the state government for help. For example, SMIC got

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from

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back in May to ramp up production using its 12nm and 14nm fabrication processes in Shanghai. SMIC lost its majority stake in the SMSC company which owns the Fab SN1 as a result of the investment, but will naturally continue to operate the plant.

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Jul 15, 2020 — For example, SMIC got $2.25 billion from two Chinese funds back in May to ramp up production using its 12nm and 14nm fabrication processes ...

And the mythical SN2 FAB

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Feb 7, 2021 — Through the project list, SMIC will be able to set up its SN1 12-inch (300mm) wafer production line and it will be joined by Huali ...

 

[56860]

What evidence is there to the contrary?

The places one needs to travel in Europe to understand who makes decisions are the US military bases dotted all over Europe. So long as this military occupation of Europe continues, Europe does not have the sovereignty to make independent foreign policy decisions. That the US is gracious enough to let European countries run their own postal services is irrelevant.

I don't care who you are, if you have US bases in your country, you are never truly independent, and at worst a semi-colony (Japan). Even Singapore, with a Han Chinese majority, and whose entire geopolitical strategy revolves around playing both sides, 'chose' to sanction Russia and abandon Huawei.

 

[tphuang]

@tphuang Sir I may disagree, Trust had been broken and with it the goodwill. And IF China is able to produce the same equipment (even though less capable) then what is there to cooperate, they had become rivals. The European had the advantage now with EUVL monopoly, BUT within 2 years time, that monopoly with be shattered as China without a doubt will be able to produce an equivalent. Adversity and Necessity is the mother of invention, By refusing to sell to China by flimsy excuses they lost the Chinese market forever.

And why would China not want to have access to the European market? It's a huge market. If China can negotiate from a position of strength, it can enter partnerships on terms that it likes. Keep in mind that China has gained a lot over the years from its partnership with Europe. I can gave you a full list of military projects that received European help.

If you don't talk/negotiate, you will never know what kind of opportunities are out there. That should be a lesson in life for everyone.

Europe didn't oppose the US invasion of Iraq, they opted out of it. No different to the UK opting out of Vietnam.

If Europe was truly independent, it would be applying the same level of pressure on America back then as it is on Russia today.

That is factually false. France and Germany opposed it in UN. This was very well known. The relationship with France go so bad that US senators got their cafeteria menu to change "French Fries" to "Freedom fries"

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[ansy1968]

And why would China not want to have access to the European market? It's a huge market. If China can negotiate from a position of strength, it can enter partnerships on terms that it likes. Keep in mind that China has gained a lot over the years from its partnership with Europe. I can gave you a full list of military projects that received European help.

If you don't talk/negotiate, you will never know what kind of opportunities are out there. That should be a lesson in life for everyone.

@tphuang Sir my lesson in life, IF both have something to offer, you talk you cooperate and you do business, BUT IF you dealing with a monopoly, they will decide the winner and you are at their mercy.

 

[manqiangrexue]

Can SMIC produce 12nm now? They still stuck at 14nm since 2020. Their progress is too slow.

I know, right? Every other country goes 14, 12, 10, 8 progress every month. Why's China so slow? India's doing potato chips, corn chips, almost at yam chips already and China still doesn't even have its first commercial EUV after 2-3 years. It's crazy slow.

I dont want rumor. I want real progress with evidence. Where is N+1,2,3,4,5 they talked about since 2 years ago. Atleast SMIC should do 12nm for small progress instead stuck and stay 14nm like forever. Forget about 7nm or euv just do atleast 12 nm.

Then go read the news on Google if you only want completed published news. We're here analyzing everything including whatever expertise we have in house trying to get ahead of the media. If that's not good enough for you, go somewhere else and don't spam with angry boy comments.