Yeah, the tin foil nonsense from boh sides are to be expected, and all of it is most offensive to those on the plane and their families and friends, and Malaysian airlines.
Crisis in the Ukraine
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Yeah, the tin foil nonsense from boh sides are to be expected, and all of it is most offensive to those on the plane and their families and friends, and Malaysian airlines.
kwaigonegin
Colonel
To be fair that is nor entirely true... Up until then numerous airlines were flying those waypoints including very regarded airlines like Singapore Airlines, Emirates, Cathay Pacific and a bunch of others.
hindsight it s always 20/20 but I will not place fault on Malaysia airlines on this one.
Come on delft...that's simply not true.
All have been pushing for an investigation from the start.
As I said earlier. It is absolutely most likely that the separatists shot this aircraft down. That they did so with a Russian missile.
That missile could have been part of Ukraine equipment they captured or it could have been supplied by Russia. Operators could easily have been rebels because many of them served in the Ukraine military in times past and I bet they could have found individuals who operated the Ukrainian equipment. That's the two edged sword nature of civil wars in such nations.
In the end...IMHO, the biggest fault in this absolutely lies with Malaysian Airlines. It is incomprehensible to me that such aircraft would fly over a war zone like this. It is well known that Ukraine has such missiles. It is clear that in a civil war like this the other side may get them...either from Ukraine or Russia.
I believe the phone intercepts are accurate. All they do is, IMHO, make clear the obvious.
The separatists are at war. They saw a large aircraft flying directly over territory thy occupy. They shot it down and thought it was military. As the one person said...paraphrase..."to heck with them. We are at war. They should not be flying here."
I agree 100% with this sentiment.
They separatists should express sincere sorrow at the loss of innocent life. They should admit it was a mistake. But they should also indicate that the biggest mistake was not theirs...but Malaysian Airlines. The let the investigators in to do their business.
A lot of innocent life is being lost in this conflict. At the hands of both sides. That does not make it okay...but it is a part of war...a very tragic and sad part. IMHO, only if one side or the other can be shown to systematically and intentionally target and kill innocent civilians in an effort to accomplish political goals does it become a war crime. This is not even close to that.
If it is found that Russia supplied the system, and had operators on the ground operating it...then there is something there for the international community to crow about and sanction Russia over. But we are a LONG way from any proof of that. And if it turns out to be the case...what are they going to do? The military option has been taken off the table and so they can continue only to escalate economic sanctions...and it is not likely most of Europe will go along with that.
Broccoli
Senior Member
Luhansk is now surrounded by Ukrainian army and siege of Donetsk airport has been lifted. Strelkov is also complaining that he's supply lines are being cut and things are going badly for them...
In other news terrorists are trying to hamper investigation.
In other news terrorists are trying to hamper investigation.
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asif iqbal
Banned Idiot
What else do we have to witness before this stops? How many more have to die needlessly
Is Russia above international law??
Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17: Pro-Russian Looters Rifle Through British Victim's Belongings And 'Take Bodies Of The Dead'
The Huffington Post UK
Is Russia above international law??
Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17: Pro-Russian Looters Rifle Through British Victim's Belongings And 'Take Bodies Of The Dead'
The Huffington Post UK
Broccoli
Senior Member
It stops when Ukrainian military crushes Russian goons in their lands.
More news from the terrorist leader.
solarz
Brigadier
All that article says is that there are people looting the wreckage sites. Nowhere does the article offer any evidence that these people are associated with the rebel militia, or that they are intentionally tampering with evidence. All it does is take the statements of the Kiev regime at face value.
Nothing surprising here, they did the same thing during the Tibet and Xinjiang riots.
The infamous YouTube video of the phone intercepts is at best a propaganda ploy. There are numerous problems or irregularities surrounding the video in question. First, as Sampan had pointed out, the creation time stamp of video is July 16 19:10:24 which is before MH17 had taken off. How can rebels discuss shooting down a plane that hasn't taken off yet? Do eastern rebels have a time machine?
Second, there is another video with the same production quality that was released in June 5th. The design and the captioning are almost identical to the infamous shoot down video. It is also a telephone intercept of Kozitsyn, the same guy in question.
This is the June 5th video
[video=youtube;GFr_v2UBUJA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFr_v2UBUJA[/video]
Since Youtube is public domain that anyone can access, Kozitsyn would probably know he's being tap after the June 5th video. How stupid is this Kozitsyn guy that he would discuss an incendiary incident over the phone knowing he is being monitored?
The phone intercept video just provides enough reinforcement or hints for people that have already made up their minds about MH17.
>>>>>>>>>> MODERATOR'S INSTRUCTIONS <<<<<<<<<<
Talk about Russian "goons", talk about the US and UK wanting only to condemn Russia, talk about what I would call real stretches to try and paint this as a Ukraine "false flag," etc. etc. even in the face of rational calls to consider the issue, convince me that this thread needs to be closed again.
Too much emotion. Too much political/ideological investment that will only lead (and is leading) to arguments, flame bait, etc.
We will let bd popeye who is the lead moderator, and who created this thread make the determination on if and when it should be reopened.
THREAD CLOSED
DO NOT open any other threads on the Ukraine Civil War/Crisis until bd popeye makes a determination.[
>>>>>>>> END MODERATOR'S INSTRUCTIONS <<<<<<<<
Well stated Jeff.
I will re-open this thread on Sunday afternoon my time my time . About 1900 GMT. HOWEVER..if this thread get's out of hand again. This thread shall be closed permanently.
In my opinion this subject is too important to ignore.
bd popeye super moderator
I will re-open this thread on Sunday afternoon my time my time . About 1900 GMT. HOWEVER..if this thread get's out of hand again. This thread shall be closed permanently.
In my opinion this subject is too important to ignore.
bd popeye super moderator
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