China Flanker Thread II

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Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Black soot wouldn't affect negatively, if any at all, on the performance of the aircraft. In fact a bit of roughness on the aircraft surface actually improves its aerodynamics. Perhaps, they found out how the black soot actually improves the aircraft aerodynamics slightly and are leaving it as it is for the moment, perhaps to investigate it further. Just a theory.

I read your response with interest, I certainly am familiar with boundary layer airflow decreasing drag in certain applications and aspects, to extrapolate that into the statement, "IN FACT A BIT OF ROUGHNESS ON THE AIRCRAFT SURFACES ACTUALLY IMPROVES AERODYNAMICS", spoken with that vedy, vedy, British accent, and taking a long thoughtful drag on your pipe, makes me wonder ????? what are you smoking lad?????, must be a little "wacky tabacky". Furthermore there is no mechanism on board the Liaoning where by such a determination could be made, so in my most skeptical sideward glance, thoughtfully rubbing my chin, INDEED?? brat

I do like your thinking out loud, and you did entice me to read the rear wing article, but I would also point out that Zipps are very pricey, and like everything else in Road Biking, geared to take the wonky dudes money, like paying somebody 300 bucks to adjust your bicycle seat and handlebars, and calling it a "bike fit". The local guy in the shop, does that as a matter of good service, oldcannondale, er ah Air Force Brat, Ahem~ brat
 

kyanges

Junior Member
I think it's also worth pointing out that while the plane is pretty dirty, it's also not *as* bad as it looks from that image, because the colors in that picture are just super saturated, so even a light amount of dirt would look a lot worse than it really is.

Regardless, it's a great picture. Nice, big and in decent res.
 

Quickie

Colonel
I read your response with interest, I certainly am familiar with boundary layer airflow decreasing drag in certain applications and aspects, to extrapolate that into the statement, "IN FACT A BIT OF ROUGHNESS ON THE AIRCRAFT SURFACES ACTUALLY IMPROVES AERODYNAMICS", spoken with that vedy, vedy, British accent, and taking a long thoughtful drag on your pipe, makes me wonder ????? what are you smoking lad?????, must be a little "wacky tabacky". Furthermore there is no mechanism on board the Liaoning where by such a determination could be made, so in my most skeptical sideward glance, thoughtfully rubbing my chin, INDEED?? brat

I do like your thinking out loud, and you did entice me to read the rear wing article, but I would also point out that Zipps are very pricey, and like everything else in Road Biking, geared to take the wonky dudes money, like paying somebody 300 bucks to adjust your bicycle seat and handlebars, and calling it a "bike fit". The local guy in the shop, does that as a matter of good service, oldcannondale, er ah Air Force Brat, Ahem~ brat

I misstyped. It should be "could actually improve..."

I also said "perhaps, they found out..." It was purely random speculation on my part and nothing to be taken too seriously. :p As for mechanisms for determination, a pilot who is very familiar with his aircraft could feel the slight change in the performance of the aircraft.

Btw, the technique is also used in aircraft aerodynamics, not just racecar.

I tried to google back the info I came across but instead I found this.


Statements were made concerning the use of none flush rivets in
appropriate areas of the MIG 25 without affecting the aerodynamics -
presumably drag in the 1g case. Surely this is sorted out in the West by
wind tunnel tests and during development.

Quill's book on the Spitfire refers to tests with the flush riveted
prototype with split peas (from a greengrocer) glued onto every (flush)
rivet to simulate round-head rivets. They were then removed/added over a
large number of flights to establish where they could get away with
normal rivets given the GBP/labour additional cost of flush rivets. This
was in the 1930's.


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Edit: This one is also relevant to topic of discussion.

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Air Sharks

Airplanes With Sharks' Skin? It May Cut Fuel Burn

By Drake Bennett February 25, 2013

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Eirtech Aviation's airplane paint facility in Czech Republic, which paints airplanes such as Boeing, Airbus, ATR, SAAB, Bombardier, Embraer and others
Photograph by Jaroslav Ozana/CTK via AP Images

Eirtech Aviation's airplane paint facility in Czech Republic, which paints airplanes such as Boeing, Airbus, ATR, SAAB, Bombardier, Embraer and others




Aside from connoisseurs of high-end cowboy boots, most people don’t have much skin from sharks in their lives (as opposed to that well-known worsted fabric called sharkskin). In a few years that may change. Airbus and the German airline Lufthansa, working together, are testing a shark-skin coating for their airplanes. It’s not actual shark skin, but a synthetic replica, and it’s part of the continual effort to reduce airlines’ mammoth fuel bills.

We’re used to thinking of aerodynamics as a matter of sleekness, but a shark’s skin suggests that the right kind of roughness is actually better. Sharks may be all clean lines and curves from afar, but their skin is composed of jagged scales covered with longitudinal ridges. Those tiny ridges are a big part of why sharks can so easily slice through the water.

Experiments suggest that the ridges cut down on the friction between the shark and the water, channeling the water and even speeding it along as it moves over the skin and preventing eddies, which contribute to drag. Hoping to capitalize on this quality, boat hull designers and swimsuit makers have incorporated shark-skin structures into their products, although the swimsuits have some skeptics.

STORY: American Airlines Repaints Its Planes—to Much Carping

The principle doesn’t work only for water, though. Lufthansa (LHA:GR) estimates that the synthetic shark-skin coating they’re experimenting with could cut its fuel use by 1 percent. That doesn’t sound like much, but at Lufthansa’s burn rate, that’s 90,000 tons of jet fuel a year—some $94 million at current prices. The shark-skin “riblets,” as they’re called, are made by pressing a stamp into a layer of fresh paint.

According to Georg Fanta, the director of airplane painting at Lufthansa, the riblets are 50 to 60 microns wide, and 20 to 30 deep. He compares them to “grooves on an old record.” The experiment, which started in 2011 and is scheduled to run through the summer, is actually a test of the durability of the coating—two of the airline’s planes have several patches of it on their fuselage and wings.

“We just want to know if you expose it to de-icing liquids, expose it to dust, what happens to it,” says Fanta. If the results are good, he adds, the next step will be to figure out how to cover entire planes economically with shark-skin riblets. “We are just starting to think about that,” he says.
 
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Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
I misstyped. It should be "could actually improve..."

I also said "perhaps, they found out..." It was purely random speculation on my part and nothing to be taken too seriously. :p As for mechanisms for determination, a pilot who is very familiar with his aircraft could feel the slight change in the performance of the aircraft.

Btw, the technique is also used in aircraft aerodynamics, not just racecar.

I tried to google back the info I came across but instead I found this.

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Edit: This one is also relevant to topic of discussion.

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Well this last businessweek article says MAY cut fuel burn, I highly doubt it or everyone would be doing it. One of the beauties of using composites is that aircraft skin may be very smooth, without rivets, I'm not saying it never "could?" cut drag, but it would be an anamolous airflow condition, and the Spitfire study was to see if they could tell a difference, they could not, and so used the cheaper normal rivets as opposed to flush rivets, which take more time and trouble to set and buck, as the aircraft skin has to be dimpled mechanically to set a flush rivet...

What pilot on what planet could tell the drag reduction of the dimples or surface roughness on what aircraft??? NONE, and yes I am a pilot and yes I have set and bucked rivets, flush and round head, now if you open a set of cowl flaps, or pull on or take off 10 degrees of flap, of course, but know one I know has a butt that sensitive. Oh, and you are a bright lad, only reason I'm taking he time to inform you sir, keep up the good work, I DO like the way you think. brat
 

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
according to chief designer,J-15 air frame has a 25~30 life span.

Links?

From many Chinese website, they never mentioned chief designer stated that the lifespan was 25 to 30 years, that news was by a 'military expert' called 尹卓, and he is by no mean the chief designer.
 

hardware

Banned Idiot
links?

From many chinese website, they never mentioned chief designer stated that the lifespan was 25 to 30 years, that news was by a 'military expert' called 尹卓, and he is by no mean the chief designer.

人民网北京9月4日电(记者黄子娟)近日,很多眼尖的军迷发现,在央视新闻报道画面中,显示歼-15涂着海灰色涂装,座舱后侧下方还喷绘着一面解放军海军旗。坊间纷纷猜测,或许这正是已经下线的歼-15量产型。军事专家尹卓在接受央视采访时表示,歼-15的全寿期大约25到30年一旦量产,其性能就基本固定了。

  歼-15(代号飞鲨;英文为j-15)为重型舰载战斗机,是沈飞在国产歼-11战斗机的基础上研发而成。
 

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
人民网北京9月4日电(记者黄子娟)近日,很多眼尖的军迷发现,在央视新闻报道画面中,显示歼-15涂着海灰色涂装,座舱后侧下方还喷绘着一面解放军海军旗。坊间纷纷猜测,或许这正是已经下线的歼-15量产型。军事专家尹卓在接受央视采访时表示,歼-15的全寿期大约25到30年一旦量产,其性能就基本固定了。

  歼-15(代号飞鲨;英文为j-15)为重型舰载战斗机,是沈飞在国产歼-11战斗机的基础上研发而成。

There you go. It is not the chief designer, but "military expert or analyst" (军事专家) who made that comment.

Next time, please be more careful and not post misleading information.
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel
Rear Admiral Yin Zhuo claims the Flying Shark has better air performance but inferior attack capabilities when compared to F/A-18E.

---------------

Recently, many keen military observers have noted that the J-15 shown on CCTV news is coated in a sea-grey paint finish, and carries the navy flag under the rear part of the cabin.There is speculation that this may be the model released for mass production. Yin Zhuo also said that the air combat capabilities of the J-15 carrier-based aircraft were better than those of the main U.S. carrier-based aircraft, the F/A-18 "Super Hornet".

The J-15 has integrated the technology of the J-11B with carrier-based features such as canard, folding wings, and tailhook. Its undercarriage has high strength, and the front wheel is suitable for catapult launch similar to the carrier-based fighter of the U.S. navy.The catapult launch was taken into consideration at the beginning of its design.

According to media reports, the J-15 is the first generation Chinese carrier-based fighter with outstanding capabilities in attack and defense, excellent maneuverability, and strong capability to attack targets on land or sea. It is able to seek out and destroy large mobile enemy targets on sea. The J-15 fighter is equipped with 30mm machine guns, and is able to carry a supersonic anti-ship missile, the YJ-62 long-range anti-ship missile, the PL-8/9 short-range air-to-air missile, the PL-12 active radar homing long-range air-to-air missile,and the "Thunder Stone" series of gliding guided bombs.

According to the analysis of military experts, since the J-15 is newly-developed, its electronic equipment is very likely to be one generation ahead of the J-11, and is definitely far superior to the Su-33, which is equipped with lagging inverse Cassegrain antenna. It is very likely that the J-15 carries electronic equipment that meets the standards of a fifth generation fighter, and reaches the level of the U.S. F/A-18E/F in this respect.

In terms of its performance compared to other carrier-based aircraft in service around the world, Yin Zhuo said that the J-15 capabilities are high. For instance, it reaches a similar level to the U.S. F/A-18C/D "Super Hornet". While overall it is slightly inferior to the F/A-18E/F, it has better performance in air combat. Its ability to attack land and sea-based targets is lower than the F/A-18E/F, but it is at least equal to, and perhaps slightly better than, India's Mig-29K.
 
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siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Loaded J-15 takes flight. Courtesy of the CCTV Agricultural/Military Channel:

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