Chinese Engine Development

[MiG-29]

maybe mexico can one day incorporate what it learns from being part of the west's aerospace supply chain to build up its domestic aerospace industry. maybe one day it can design and sell its own turbofans and commercial aircraft so that the lion's share of the profit is not taken by its american partners. .

The Aerospace industry does not work like that, in a global world every one shares, even Rolls Royce or General Electric or Pratt and Whittney, because you do not need many aircraf engine makers duplicating engine programs and spendig extra money in programs that will fail.

We Chose that way because we have chosen globalization and industrial interdependence as a way to suceed as GE or RR chose Frisa.

We are not planning Mexican engines but be part of successful international programs that save costs in the same way Germany. Japan or Italy do

Regards any way i will give the topic a rest thanks

 

[superdog]

Let us do this, i guess we are not going any where, i have never say we are better, i said we have another policy in aerospace, as such this has allowed to get into important projects, as such we have different objectives.

Mexico`s aerospace objective is be one of the 10 top suppliers in the world by 2020 and export 12 billion on related aircraft parts and become one of the top centers of aircraft design regardless if it is pure mexican or Foreign owned.

Mexico is currently the top destination for aerospace manufacturing investments in the world.

Source

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By 2020 the aerospace industry of Mexico will be one of the in the world.


China they are doing the same, any way we are going off topic, so i can tell you to finish the argument, our aerospace capabilities have grown and we are engaged in the design of modern top noch engines, yes as junior members, true but in many ways we are not a minor nation in aerospace now, but a middle power with a very smart policy to get investment.

And I never interpreted your words as "Mexico is better than China", it was clear you didn't say that. I was replying to your claim that "we are not behind in many ways", which I assume that you're comparing to China's engine industry given the context. In that reply, I explained to you the internal and external reasons why China cannot follow what Mexico does (which is not to say Mexico is doing it wrong). Additionally, even in the highly unlikely case that companies like GE collaborated with China in Engine development like they did with Mexico, such a cooperation will not give China the tech independence it needed.

In short, what Mexico gets now or in the future will not satisfy what China is pursuing. In the long term, China cannot be satisfied staying as subcontractor for Western aerospace companies, no matter how big a subcontractor it become. This is determined by their scale and position in the global geopolitical landscape. Therefore, China need to continue focusing on indigenous development even if what they can make right now is not as advanced as a GE engine that Mexico took part in building. Becoming an international supplier and design subcontractor for western engine companies should only be a secondary goal and not something to rely your military engine supply on. After all, what choice do they have? It is not like China can buy GE engine for their KJ-2000 or Y-20, regardless if they copied or not. Hey, if they can copy these engines they'd have already done that, given that there are countless western airliner engine in service in China right now, including the most advanced ones.

I have no intention to bash the Mexico aerospace industry in any way, so no need to defend it. I'm just saying it's not a model China could or should pursue.

 

[AssassinsMace]

haha do you know what is interdependence?
The difference is the US and Mexico are geographically neighbours, as such is either we cooperate or we are rivals, we have chosen to cooperate, we are not anymore like Venezuela or Cuba, in any human or society relation you have the same option

China has chosen to be rival, as such do not expect honeywell do the same work it does in Mexico in China.

The same way Germany learnt to cooperate with France or England we have learnt.

Is the USA stronger industrialy than us, yes they are, it does not mean we do not have creativity or we can not cooperate and have common goals.

China has chosen rivalry, as such they are banned to get some tech but this also slows down their engine technology and the access to western tech and isaid that from the begining, now let us rest and each one keep our opinion regards.
i will leave the topic a rest until new thing happen

The US has plenty of alternatives to Mexico. That's why American corporations outsourced to China and still do when Mexico was right next door. China still is called the manufacturer of the world not ever Mexico. What alternatives does Mexico have other than the US? None. That's why they can "trust" Mexico because Mexico can't survive without the US. The US controls the destiny of Mexico. China is way more developed than Mexico. What does that say about all those supposed advantages?

 

[no_name]

Ummm...back on topic --> which is chinese engine development, not indian, brazilian, or mexican? And not talking about IP or whatever here?

 

[rhino123]

haha do you know what is interdependence?
The difference is the US and Mexico are geographically neighbours, as such is either we cooperate or we are rivals, we have chosen to cooperate, we are not anymore like Venezuela or Cuba, in any human or society relation you have the same option

China has chosen to be rival, as such do not expect honeywell do the same work it does in Mexico in China.

The same way Germany learnt to cooperate with France or England we have learnt.

Is the USA stronger industrialy than us, yes they are, it does not mean we do not have creativity or we can not cooperate and have common goals.

China has chosen rivalry, as such they are banned to get some tech but this also slows down their engine technology and the access to western tech and isaid that from the begining, now let us rest and each one keep our opinion regards.
i will leave the topic a rest until new thing happen

Wrong. China has never chosen to be rival. Do you have references or evidence? Or are you just shooting your mouth off?

China had never chosen to be rival to anyone, she opened her door to outside investment and that is what happen all the time. If China had chosen to be rival to anyone, why in the hell would Toyota, Volkswagon, Boeing, Honda, and whoever chose to invest in it and went in as join venture?

You do not want to go there as far as arms embargoment, because there are heaps of sites out there and no one in this forum wanted to start a country to country bashing, all I can tell you is that there are many other circumstances that can lead to arms embargoments. So please don't embaraess yourself and stick to a topic you understand.

As to many of your accusation on China copying other high tech things... I have already stated in my comments earlier on how those are not possible. And frankly... do you actually think reverse engineering is that simple... like taking an iphone, tear it apartment, look at it and then came up with something similar? Even if it is an iphone, you would need someone who can open tooling, replicate the electronic boards, look into the software, etc... or else it would just be some that had similar outlook but works totally differently.

Now... take that analogy and dump it into high tech equipment like a turbofan engine... if China do not already had the knowledge and industrial base to make that particular engine, even with a blueprint, do you think it is possible to come up with the exact same engine replica? Or even a replica that is slightly inferior? As far as we can see (and the Russian claiming), the WS-10A is not really too far off to the AL-31. So... does it actually also means that China already process the capability that equals to Russia?

Plus why people favor Mexico to build engines rather than China... many things came to mind,

1) Logistic, the biggest customer might be US, and US is just next door, building engine in a region closer to you could save you on transportation cost and also if anything should happen, it is easy to get access to that country.
2) Political reasons, that is to provide jobs for people closer to US and to move US engineers into those country easier.
3) Security threats, China and US or the West, might not be in the closest relationship, and China is a totally different beast as compared to Mexico, so if at one point of time, when there are actual confrontation or fall out, the US would want to make sure that the thing that kept their fighter flying is near home, rather than in a country that they are going to fight with.

So is the three above mentioned reasons logical to you?

 

[superdog]

China has chosen rivalry, as such they are banned to get some tech but this also slows down their engine technology and the access to western tech and isaid that from the begining, now let us rest and each one keep our opinion regards.
i will leave the topic a rest until new thing happen

China has "chosen" rivalry when they decided to build a largely independent country with a strong industry. If they choose to become weaker which makes them less of a threat to the US, their aerospace industry may work like Mexico today. Somehow I wouldn't want to live in that alternate reality.

Ok maybe this is getting too political so I'll stop here.

 

[AssassinsMace]

Here's the interesting conundrum. Any poster with an anti-China agenda can have it hidden under discourse about China since this is a Chinese military forum. But no one is suppose to counter because it will be most likely off-topic because it's always in the context how some other country being superior just like here Mexico is better than China. I already knew Mig's agenda from when around first he joined the forum. He was arguing how English will be the dominant language not Chinese for the foreseeable future. I agreed with him but he chose to spin to argue with me. Why would you argue with someone that agrees with you? Because he's only in here to go against any opinion from anyone Chinese. He's not in here for a discussion. He's in here to discredit anything about China. He kept on bringing up how intellectual property theft was wrong like only China did it. Funny how every country he pointed to that he said was respectful of intellectual property are also in the tops of intellectual property theft violators. Now that he knows that Mexico in the top 5 thieves of the world, all of the sudden there's a difference.

 

[Lion]

Look

Be realistic, China has broken more agreements with Russia in aerospace than India.

The Al-31 is build in India, with complete license.
Have the Indians build MiG-21s call them indigenously and sell them?

No they have not

India has keep all the licenses with Russia clean, the Russians are satisfied with the Indian policy.

China has a very long history of "indigenizing" which is basicly Cloning foreign tech and naming it as it was domestic.

This has annoyed many foreign companies, from Japanese trains, German cars, Russian Su-27s and so on.

So Honeywell will think twice before transfering tech.

Russia has even warned China not to clone the Al-31 and russian sources say the WS-10 incorporates a lot of Al-31 and this is not the Russian media but it is said by Saturn officials .


The same goes for 117.

The Russians are really trying to sell SU-35s, but the condition was for China to sign an agreement not to clone Russian tech and that includes the 117.


India has not such poblem, understand this, any nation can copy, India and Mexico can copy, however what you do at the end is destroy foreign investment.


China has a very large market, Mexico is 13 times smaller, so if we want investment we need to keep foreign tech safer.

In fact probably one of the mottos of Mexican aerospace officials going to aerospace shows to promote mexico as a destintion for aerospace investment is Intelectual safety

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The Russian company behind the world's most infamous rifle, the Kalashnikov AK-47, is up in arms over an alleged copy made by India's state weapons maker.

Its not that India dont copy... AL-31 engine proves too difficult for India to copy. Her aero industrial is still not at that mark to even copy a single important component of it.

I suggest our Mig-29 friend not to be so naive and think they are that innocent.

 

[z117]

I actually don't believe most western multinationals are against Chinese partnership, if it were not for the arms embargos and political intervention by western governments, the likes of Boeing/GE/Airbus would be first in line for China's markets. Take a look at the car and IT industries, intellectual property concerns have not stopped them from cooperating with Chinese industries. On the contrary, if it were not for the Chinese government strong arming western multinationals, they would have even less incentive to share and reinvest locally - there are no shortage of examples of small countries with little to no bargaining power that end up in one sided relationships vis-a-vis foreign multinationals.

 

[pissybits]

The Aerospace industry does not work like that, in a global world every one shares, even Rolls Royce or General Electric or Pratt and Whittney, because you do not need many aircraf engine makers duplicating engine programs and spendig extra money in programs that will fail.

We Chose that way because we have chosen globalization and industrial interdependence as a way to suceed as GE or RR chose Frisa.

We are not planning Mexican engines but be part of successful international programs that save costs in the same way Germany. Japan or Italy do

Regards any way i will give the topic a rest thanks

if you can build a better engine, whose to say it will fail? rolls royce, pratt & whittney, and g.e. are the oldest and most experienced firms with a stranglehold on the premier intellectual capital for designing turbofans. sure they will "share" but only when it benefits themselves better than their partners. at the end of the day, they will never share their crucial trade secrets, because they represent an oligopoly in the aerospace sector.

oligopolies form because a few companies realize that they have what others just can't get, and they can dominate the market if they agree to work together to restrict market entry. this way they get higher profits than if everyone could do what they could.