The War in the Ukraine

Nilou

Junior Member
Registered Member
There is simply no end-game for Russia at this point. That is the problem for Russia.

Ukraine just has to not surrender and will keep firing european drones into Russia. What can Russia do, bomb Ukraine? They are already doing that. Ukraine's drone launches will only increase in magnitude as european drone factories come online. Russian factories will not be able to match European industry, as much as they say it. And they have much more valuable targets in Russia. All of the actual targets Russia needs to hit are in NATO, invulnerable.

Russia just has no way out.
 

Tam

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Yes there are all valid points and I agree. But this does not really affect the Ukraine-Russia War.

The main problem is that Russia doesn't have the guts to even hit actual production facilities in Europe. Production lines for drones in european countries such as Germans have started operating this year represent production which Russia will never be able to disrupt because they don't have guts to actually escalate to bombing NATO. Even the United States could not suppress Iran's drone launches, what makes you think Russia could stop Ukraine? Russia can't even gain air superiority over Ukraine.

Iran can get their drone parts from China. But China is blocking them for both the US and Europe. Doesn't mean that the US and Europe can get these parts from Taiwan and other places, but China is squeezing the supply of rare earth. Same thing used in drone motors are also used for EVs and hybrids and air conditioning and generators used to power AI data centers. You are going to have to decide which is your priority once the supply tightens and prices hit over thousands of percent.

Russia cannot gain air superiority over Ukraine, yet somehow, dozens and dozens of FABs and air to ground missiles are launched every day? How many planes have Ukraine shot down as per ratio of every successful mission raid the Russians conducted? The reported confirmed kills of Ukrainian fighter jets over Russian ones is a perfect zero since the start of the war.

Yes, Russia's ability to hit Ukrainian infrastructure with FPV drones seems like a huge advantage, but with Ukrainian drones now having reach deep into Russia and hit vital infrastructure like refineries in St. Petersburg or Moscow, that has been fully neutralised. If enything, Russia has many more valuable targets, and has much more to lose. Ukraine's geographical disadvantage in terms of reach has been neutralised using longer distance drones.

Drones cannot be transported as a whole. They are transported in kits and assembled. You hit the assembly areas. You hit the transports.

As a whole, Ukraine busy trying to hit Russian refineries, they are not hit hitting Russian drone production centers, which are totally spread out.

I agree that Europe's economy is experiencing inflation, but if we are bringing the economy into this conversation have you seen Russia's economy? it's 5.3%. You need to consider both sides. Russia's economy is doing much worse, and Europe actually has tools to fix their economy unlike Russia which already exhausted most of their resources in the first 2 years. Yes europe is losing industry to China but that is honestly a good thing for Europe because it reduces their energy demands, furthre reducing the effects of Russia's energy cutoff. Chinese outsourcing is something we talk about on this forum because it helps China, but it does nothing to help Russia in the war. Bringing up the state of the economy does not help Russia's case, it actually worsens it.

You saying Russia has ran out of natural resources is completely no reflection of reality. Russia has immense reserves not just in oil, but natural gas, agriculture, every sort of mineral and metal from nickel to gold to platinum to copper, steel, aluminum, lithium, titanium, rare Earth's, etc,. Russia is also a major world supplier of Urea that's vitally needed for fertilizer and explosive.

Ukraine itself is currently running at an 8-9 % inflation rate.

While the inflation rate of the EU is around 2.4% that is not true with different member states, which can pull the whole thing down like dominos.

And when has debt to gdp ratio stopped a war?

Debt destroyed the UK as a superpower.

Even if we are using that as a measure, just look at Germany and how much more fiscal room have to play with. Again costs of drones to Ukraine are miniscule compared to an actual conventional military and anti air defense, and they do hugely outsized damage to Russian Infrastructure. This balance has fundamentally changed.

You forget that Russia is mostly shooting down Ukrainian drones with automated gunfire from trucks and helicopters, MANPADS, cheap interceptor FPV drones and dedicated interceptor drones like Yelkas that are made cheap from foam and plastic.

Russian drones are doing the same to Ukrainian infrastructure. Ukraine depends on it's own gas deposits for energy. That infrastructure is being destroyed, denying Ukraine and Europe of cheap natural gas.

The rare-earths card is not a magical win all. And it isn't Russia's card. People seem to conflate Chinese power with Russian power. China is not stopping rare-earths shipments to europe for european/ukrainian drones.

They are actually. Because such drones can be used in a Taiwan reunification scenario against China. China has gone out of its way to increase the list of prohibited entities from buying rare earths, and arresting individuals.

Again, Russia does not have the ability to do that, stopping rare earths is at China's discretion. The rare earths argument is straight up not relevant in this conflict.

Read the above again.

Also Russia is another supplier of ore that can be used to refine rare earths. Russia in China's back means a clear path to Russian energy, minerals and yes, even agriculture. Agricultural export to China is big.

Trump trying to bottleneck China's energy supply from Venezuela to Iran has pushed China closer to Russian energy where they have a massive gas pipeline and is looking to build another.
 
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Tam

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
There is simply no end-game for Russia at this point. That is the problem for Russia.

Ukraine just has to not surrender and will keep firing european drones into Russia. What can Russia do, bomb Ukraine? They are already doing that. Ukraine's drone launches will only increase in magnitude as european drone factories come online. Russian factories will not be able to match European industry, as much as they say it. And they have much more valuable targets in Russia. All of the actual targets Russia needs to hit are in NATO, invulnerable.

Russia just has no way out.

Where will they launch the drones? Drones need a certain air speed to lift which means, like Gerans, they have to be launched from trucks. So Russian drones hunt down the trucks. They also hunt down the truck depot's where they are parked. They hunt down the fuel stations which the trucks need to fuel. (Drones referred to here as the long ranged winged type like Gerans and Lyuties.)

The result is that the drones have to be launched further and further away with less frequency and this results in them getting detected earlier and getting shot down more often. The farther the drone is launched from the border, the more time it is on the air and the earlier it is spotted by radar.

Just how many warehouses, gas stations, truck fleets, can be destroyed with Ukraine before the entire economy craters?
 
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Soldier30

Captain
Registered Member
On the night of July 6, the Russian Armed Forces launched another missile strike on Kyiv and its environs. Iskander-M ballistic missiles, Tsirkon hypersonic missiles, Kh-101 cruise missiles, and Kalibr missiles were used.
A video filmed by local residents shows the detonation of explosives in a warehouse on the premises of the Ukrainian machine-building plant "Vizar" near Vyshneve, western Kyiv. Damage was also recorded at other sites in Kyiv.
The Kyiv-1 electronics assembly plant (state-owned Kyiv Plant "Burevestnik"), which produces fire control systems, optical-electronic countermeasure systems, navigation and automation equipment for the Ukrainian Air Force and Navy, including for the Neptune-MD guided missile, was damaged by missile strikes in Kyiv. The Kyiv-79 industrial enterprise is a key manufacturer and supplier of armored vehicles and armored vehicle components. The shipyard is a major machine-building enterprise, producing Project 58155 Gyurza-M artillery boats.

 

Nilou

Junior Member
Registered Member
The Russian end game is the survival of the current regime which the west wants toppled. You say Europe won't stop as they are "too close to the conflict". You know who is even closer? Russia.
So an eternal war with Ukraine? Because right now that seems to be where this is heading. Mere survival is not victory. Russia has no way to end the war. That is the funny part.

And that means Russia will be permanently crippled with a continous war. Great for the US, Europe and China, they are totally fine and happy with the current trajectory of the war.

Russia's long-term future looks very grim. Of course Ukraine's looks even worse but they don't have a choice anymore, they are committed.
 

Randomuser

Major
Registered Member
Apparently once Ukraine is officially kicked out of the Donbass and has no way feasible way back to it or the other conquered territories by Russia its pretty much finished as a properly functioning independent country. It simply has no way to fully fund or supply itself and will pretty much become a dependent country on outsiders for a lot of thing. It basically cant generate its own blood anymore and has to rely on others to keep injecting it everyday. The debt will keep adding up after that and its a lot different when there's no more feasible hope of regaining the east. It can lash out in many ways but its pretty much on borrowed time after that.

Maybe this is why Russia just focuses on those parts.
 

temporary1

New Member
Registered Member
The result is that the drones have to be launched further and further away with less frequency and this results in them getting detected earlier and getting shot down more often. The farther the drone is launched from the border, the more time it is on the air and the earlier it is spotted by radar.
2500km distance from front lines, no problem.
-1 largest Russian oil refinery.
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Ukraine can keep spamming these relatively cheap drones while Russia can spend a few hundred million dollars and a few years building them back lol
1000029592.jpg
 

tamsen_ikard

Captain
Registered Member
2500km distance from front lines, no problem.
-1 largest Russian oil refinery.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Ukraine can keep spamming these relatively cheap drones while Russia can spend a few hundred million dollars and a few years building them back lol
View attachment 177741
People dont realize how huge these plants are and how many tons of bombs would be required permanently destroy even one of these plants.

Tiny bombs from ukraine drones will likely disable one storage tanker or perhaps one tiny fraction of the overall plant.

Yes it probably reduces production for a short amount of time while repairs happen, but it will not be that difficult to repair.

People still dont understand how costly strategic bombing is for the attacker. Factories are made of concrete and steel and impact radius of bombs is not that high.


That is not to say that Russia is not in trouble. It is in big trouble because they have no realistic way to stop ukraine from bombing them or end the war with a victory. But ukraine cannot shut russia down with tiny drone bombs
 

tankphobia

Senior Member
Registered Member
People dont realize how huge these plants are and how many tons of bombs would be required permanently destroy even one of these plants.

Tiny bombs from ukraine drones will likely disable one storage tanker or perhaps one tiny fraction of the overall plant.

Yes it probably reduces production for a short amount of time while repairs happen, but it will not be that difficult to repair.

People still dont understand how costly strategic bombing is for the attacker. Factories are made of concrete and steel and impact radius of bombs is not that high.


That is not to say that Russia is not in trouble. It is in big trouble because they have no realistic way to stop ukraine from bombing them or end the war with a victory. But ukraine cannot shut russia down with tiny drone bombs
Not really just the storage plants. Omsk is used to produce specialised chemicals for downstream industrial processes, strikes on those facilities will have outsized impact on industrial activity.

Once the oil refineries run out, next will be important industrial plants. We're already seeing strikes on electronic factories and missile component manufacturers from Ukraine. The exact same scenario in Iran is playing out where the US cannot inflict the same amount of pain to someone who has nothing worth more than the munitions being used.

A "drone assembly point" is a warehouse, is Russia going to spend thousands of pgms on 4 walls and a sheet metal roof forever?
 
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