Global future space architecture thread

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
This depends on whether the United States wants to maintain its current position in space (as a global leader).
How did America achieve its status in space? Through proactive, ultra-large-scale investment, comprehensive technological leadership, and a precipitous lead.
Back then in the 1960s you needed state investments to provide the capital concentration required to go forward with space technology. But right now the technology for space launch is accessible enough that private companies can do it.
The fact SpaceX has a de facto monopoly on Western space launch also means they have access to huge amounts of capital. Which is why they can waste so much money developing things like Starship and Starlink.

Today, China is the only country besides the United States with sufficient political will, financial scale (China's advantage lies in the efficiency of its capital use), technological reserves, and talent reserves to execute ultra-large-scale space projects.
Once China has its own reusable launch vehicles, in my opinion, it should focus on the next generation space transportation technologies. Beamed powered propulsion or nuclear propulsion. If they want to get ahead of the US that is their best bet. Because for that you need the kind of cross-field collaboration US corporates are weak with.

NASA's fantasy of relying on commercial services to maintain its competitive advantage is frankly ridiculous.
NASA invests a lot in leading edge technology like electric propulsion or the integrated powerhead demonstrator.
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NASA help get technology from the concept to the prototype stage. As you guys usually say to get from 0 to 1. The private sector is supposed to then pick that up and comercialize it. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.
As government funded research, everything developed with those NASA programs is freely accessible to US companies.

The biggest problem with commercial enterprises is that they are inherently short-sighted. When faced with economic risks and shareholder demands for profitability, they must adjust to ensure the company's survival. In this process, they will cut much of the advanced technology R&D that requires 10-30 year cycles to build up a reserve, in order to save money. This is because these areas cannot generate short-term returns.
Therefore, NASA must be the one to pay for this, using fiscal allocations from national taxes to sustain the relevant departments of these private companies and maintain control over the technology (ensuring state ownership).
NASA does this. Try reading how SpaceX got the technology for the PICA TPS in the Dragon capsule. It is NASA and DARPA which create this reserve.
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You may not understand why I say the act that truly destroyed NASA was sown 40 years ago. The core of it is the Reagan administration's overarching national strategy of shifting entirely towards a private, free-market economy. In the eyes of true Chinese professionals, the root of all of America's current societal problems stems from this.
Not really. The issue was lack of vision in my opinion. It is amazing how you can say commercial space was a mistake when you got SpaceX and Blue Origin out of it.

Reagan mostly paid lip service with regards to commercial space. He talked a lot but often he did the opposite of what he said. Like his rhetoric about free trade while simultaneously putting bans on the sale of Japanese supercomputers in the US.

America cannot even correct it, because Reagan's policies ultimately led to the complete demise of state-owned enterprises (which began with Roosevelt, who introduced some communist measures to solve the American crisis at that time).
IMHO the biggest issue with Reagan was when he changed the rules so corporations stopped investing and instead became extractive and financialized. It is easier to just milk the customer than develop something new.

Now, some top scholars within China believe that the biggest problem with the U.S. government (the essence of its inability to solve and mitigate crises) is that it does not control real corporate resources (state-owned enterprises). This results in truly low executive capability and a lack of control. The Chinese government's greatest resource, the one it has always used to solve many practical problems, is in fact its state-owned enterprises.
China needed this more than the US because it had to concentrate capital from a very low base to build up. You either do that with state companies (Soviet model) or you start private conglomerates (Japanese model).

The problem is that each company relies on financing (not fiscal funding) for technological R&D, and the intellectual property is private.
Like I said by US law all government funded research is freely available to the US private sector. Do not dismiss this.

This, in fact, creates barriers to technological cooperation.
For example, the United States is not short of 10-ton class hydrolox engines. But for SpaceX to integrate these products, it would have to ask competitors like ULA.
Not really. The way the sector works is you have companies, with subcontractors, and those also have subcontractors. ULA gets hydrolox engines from Rocketdyne and Blue Origin. And you can bet a lot of work on the engines is in turn also subcontracted.
Did you know SpaceX subcontracts the construction of turbopumps in their engines? They are not 100% vertically integrated as some would like you to believe.
 
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nativechicken

Junior Member
Registered Member
Back then in the 1960s you needed state investments to provide the capital concentration required to go forward with space technology. But right now the technology for space launch is accessible enough that private companies can do it.
You and I have a difference in understanding regarding launch technology.In my eyes, space launch technology has many technical solutions (referring to orbit insertion schemes), including traditional disposable vertical launch, various VTVL/VTHL/HTHL methods. There are single-stage to orbit and multi-stage to orbit. Primary propulsion includes rocket engines (liquid, solid,
Gel/semi-solid/solid-liquid), supersonic combustion propulsion, pulse detonation engines, and various combined cycle propulsion. Additionally, there are electromagnetic launch technology, air-based launch technology, and space elevator ascent/descent technology.The commercialization of space launch technology you mentioned only refers to VTVL. Other technical solutions are all in the early stages of technological development. These other schemes are not suitable for private enterprise investment at all, because they all involve very long cycles and require long-term subsidies (15-30 years). In fact, in its early days, SpaceX also survived thanks to government project subsidies.As I said before, the past advantage of the United States lay in its comprehensive, overwhelming lead at the technological level. The current approach is actually abandoning this method of comprehensive overwhelming lead. Instead, it is promoting leadership in certain areas. Meanwhile, current China is actually stockpiling and preparing for the kind of comprehensive overwhelming technological lead that the U.S. once had. Chinese netizens generally call it: saturation-style R&D. The core reason this is possible is that China has state-owned enterprises that are legitimate and possess cutting-edge technological capabilities and reserves. Although these state-owned enterprises may be less efficient than commercial enterprises in some areas, their key characteristic is that they are very suitable for nurturing early-stage, long-cycle cutting-edge technologies. The state is willing and able to provide continuous R&D subsidies for these technologies for 15-50 years, so that they can reach true commercial levels.Intellectual property is state-owned. As long as China recognizes that a certain field needs industrialization, with a single government directive, these advanced technologies can be provided to private/commercial space ventures, allowing them to obtain intellectual property at low cost.I really can't see how the U.S./West has any possibility of winning.
The fact SpaceX has a de facto monopoly on Western space launch also means they have access to huge amounts of capital. Which is why they can waste so much money developing things like Starship and Starlink.
The issue is, China's aerospace companies can now actually obtain massive capital to develop various space technologies and projects. Currently, China has at least 2-3 private companies proposing concepts similar to Starship (though from the perspective of enthusiasts like us, their capabilities are not highly regarded yet). Moreover, in my view, SpaceX raising huge amounts of capital to develop the Starlink project is actually the biggest reason for the decline of the U.S. space industry. Look at how China is doing it: China isn’t having a single rocket launch company raise funds. Instead, state-owned telecom operators are taking the lead to establish one or several mega-constellations of low Earth orbit satellites (actually hybrid orbit), and then opening tenders to all aerospace companies. This is the model that the U.S. government and NASA should learn from and consider. As I said earlier, what SpaceX truly proved is that a capable rocket company, with 30 specially designed reusable rockets, can advance the technology from disposable rockets to stable, mature, and reliable reusable rocket launches. The real challenge in nurturing the market isn’t the rocket, but the payload missions. Typical payload missions, such as specific satellites or space payloads, are very expensive. No one wants to place a payload on an unproven rocket (at the very least, the insurance costs would be prohibitively high). Low Earth orbit satellite constellations, on the other hand, involve launching large numbers of low-cost satellites of the same model. Even a few launch failures wouldn’t hinder the development of the operating company. This makes them particularly suitable for nurturing new startups. So, in the eyes of China’s industrial decision-makers, a low Earth orbit satellite launch market of 20,000 to 40,000 satellites could support 5,000 launch missions. Since every 30 missions could mature one reusable rocket, why not cultivate a competitive market with 15-30 commercial launch companies? Thus, the key difference between China and the U.S. lies in this: China can use lower costs to nurture dozens or even hundreds of launch companies at once, allowing them to compete freely in the market. Various space and launch technologies can develop in a balanced manner (and be incubated). In the U.S., with SpaceX’s dominance, other companies don’t even have a chance to compete. Because investors, seeing the scale of SpaceX’s Starlink today, are unwilling to fund others to build a similar system. This is the core industrial difference. I hope you understand it. I believe the current U.S. administration and American think tanks already see it. Over a decade ago, and even just three years ago, Tesla dominated the Western electric vehicle sector. But today? Tesla’s future stock price growth relies on AI and the Optimus robot, not electric vehicles.
Once China has its own reusable launch vehicles, in my opinion, it should focus on the next generation space transportation technologies. Beamed powered propulsion or nuclear propulsion. If they want to get ahead of the US that is their best bet. Because for that you need the kind of cross-field collaboration US corporates are weak with.

China operates with distinct tiers: preliminary research, development, and deployment. Whether it's laser propulsion, light sail propulsion, nuclear propulsion, and so on, these technologies are all under development (they are actually divided into two major systems: launch-to-orbit propulsion and in-space propulsion). The reusable rockets you mentioned are just one type of orbit-insertion propulsion and solution. Within China's aerospace sector, there are numerous orbit-insertion propulsion systems and solutions. VTVL is nearing practical application and deployment, while VTHL/HTHL will likely take at least 15-20 more years before large-scale commercial use. So, you don't need to worry too much about China. As a space enthusiast, I actually understand much better what China is doing than you do. Otherwise, I wouldn't be saying now that the U.S. space sector is almost certain to fall behind within about 10 years. Because when I compare every detailed field, the U.S. is currently lagging in many areas and is either too slow or inefficient and underfunded.The space sector involves many aspects. In Chinese professional literature, the space technology system encompasses five layers of technological capability. Launch capability is just one technical domain; space applications (like satellites and space stations) constitute another. Ground launch support systems are yet another major technical domain. China is looking very far ahead. The goals China has in its sights are the most glorious moments in U.S. and Soviet history, even the unrealized dreams from their plans. China is systematically making up for shortcomings in these areas (it needs to cover about 30 years of technological debt, expected to be completed around 2030-2035). Only after completing this catch-up phase will China truly transform from a major space power to a leading space power. Then, China and the U.S. will formally compete for leadership in the space domain (this was the plan as of 2016, but it now looks like it might happen earlier). So, when I look at NASA's current roadmap, I'm frankly dismayed. China is desperately learning from the U.S. model of overwhelming technological competition across all categories, while the U.S. is instead learning from China's approach of focusing on maintaining leadership in key areas. To be honest, I'm more deeply concerned and frustrated about NASA's situation than you are. NASA cannot afford to decline like this.
 

nativechicken

Junior Member
Registered Member
NASA help get technology from the concept to the prototype stage. As you guys usually say to get from 0 to 1. The private sector is supposed to then pick that up and comercialize it. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.
Indeed, NASA used to operate this way, which is why China viewed NASA as a model to learn from. Therefore, when I heard the perspectives and opinions of some individuals with NASA backgrounds regarding NASA's future policies online, the shock I felt was far greater than you can imagine. This matter is complex. It's not that NASA's change stems from a lack of understanding of their previous problems. In my view, after the deindustrialization of the U.S., coupled with the declining capability to cultivate domestic STEM talent, U.S. startups have almost completely lost the ability to incubate and productize NASA's large-scale, foundational technologies. (Simple tech transfer is feasible, but complex tech transfer is virtually impossible). The reasons are straightforward: 1) The technological costs are too high. 2) The supply chain is incomplete (with significant gaps). 3) There is a shortage of sufficient intellectual and specialized skilled talent (which is the primary reason for project delays and cost overruns). This is the real reason NASA has been forced to change, and it's also the root cause of the SLS's current situation.


Not really. The issue was lack of vision in my opinion. It is amazing how you can say commercial space was a mistake when you got SpaceX and Blue Origin out of it.
The reasons for this are quite complex. I approach the issue from the perspective of national industrial strategy and technological competition between countries, while you tend to view it from the angle of commercial investment and profitability for a single enterprise.From a national governance standpoint, what China observed in the U.S. space program (not the current U.S., but the U.S. at its peak) was a America that comprehensively and overwhelmingly outperformed its competitors in technology.Whether in terms of funding scale, technological level (comprehensiveness, breadth, and roadmap of technologies), or the scale and advancement of projects, it was entirely leading—a veritable all-rounder.This impression was so profound that it became China's target. The Chinese mindset is that we absolutely must not fall behind; at the very least, we must bridge the technological gap. There's a concept in China known as the "century of humiliation."The core idea is that without strength, one deserves to be bullied and trampled underfoot. Therefore, the Chinese believe that to achieve truly equal exchange and cooperation with the West, China must elevate its strength to a level comparable to that of the West (in the space sector, generally referring to the U.S., Europe, Japan, and Russia).So, in the Chinese conception of strength, one crucial aspect is that it must be comprehensively on par with the strength America once possessed. This is something most general space enthusiasts aren't really aware of. Most people only compare technical details like rockets, satellites, or even engines. Actually, at the national level, these specifics aren't the primary focus (whether a rocket is slightly better or worse, or if performance indicators differ, isn't the main issue; the core problem is that we must possess technologies of the same caliber).Thus, China's benchmark is that America which comprehensively overwhelmed its opponents. However, the current U.S. is contracting in terms of its scientific research breadth and investment capacity. Alternatively, due to the de facto devaluation of the dollar, the same nominal amount of funding can't buy or produce as much as it used to. Consequently, due to budgetary constraints, NASA has had to exercise control and, out of necessity, discontinue sustained investment in many areas.In my view, SpaceX has exacerbated this problem. Quite simply, it absorbs the majority of funding within the space sector. This leaves insufficient funds for other aerospace fields and companies, as the total funding pool is limited. This situation undoubtedly leads to a regression in the comprehensiveness of U.S. technology. In the short term, this might not seem like a big issue, but on a 20-30 year scale, when new technologies emerge to replace or complement existing ones, America's weaknesses will be magnified due to lack of reserves.Breakthroughs in many technologies depend on long-term scientific research efforts. For example, take the recently prominent thorium-based reactor. The U.S. previously researched and abandoned it because the corrosiveness of the molten salt coolant (for heat transfer/convection) was too high, quickly corroding piping and causing problems, making it commercially unviable. China conducted over a decade of specialized research to develop corrosion-resistant alloy (with a corrosion rate of 0.3mm per year), enabling the entire system to operate commercially. Even if the U.S. wanted to build a similar reactor now, it would need to re-develop the relevant materials, a process taking ten to twenty years (unless China exports the relevant materials or components to the U.S.).
This is precisely the core of the issue. Having SpaceX as a single dominant player is not beneficial for the broader U.S. space sector. Particularly, SpaceX's technical roadmap is quite unconventional. For instance, proposals like the Starship HLS lunar lander variant arguably shouldn't even merit serious consideration.Thus, while SpaceX is undoubtedly a great space company, its situation is somewhat of a tragedy for the wider U.S. space endeavor. Its own lopsided development simultaneously leads to an imbalanced development of the U.S. space sector as a whole, accelerating the loss of American leadership in the field of space exploration.
IMHO the biggest issue with Reagan was when he changed the rules so corporations stopped investing and instead became extractive and financialized. It is easier to just milk the customer than develop something new.
The views expressed here are not my own personal opinions, but rather represent the perspectives of some prominent Chinese scholars—specialists who have long studied the differences between the U.S. and Chinese economic or social systems, and who hold a degree of influence with both the government and the public.
 

nativechicken

Junior Member
Registered Member
Like I said by US law all government funded research is freely available to the US private sector. Do not dismiss this.

Indeed, the real challenge for startups/commercial companies isn't just acquiring technology, but transforming it into commercially competitive products.The biggest problems facing the U.S. today are: 1) Three decades of deindustrialization have left the domestic supply chain, especially for certain advanced components, almost non-existent. 2) The entire society suffers from an inadequacy in professional skill education, meaning a fundamental weakness in basic training. There is a severe shortage of domestic STEM talent, ranging from qualified blue-collar workers to R&D and design personnel, particularly those with practical experience.The U.S. must first fill these two massive gaps before it can even begin to compete with China. Otherwise, it lacks the fundamental qualifications for competition. America's current appearance of strength relies purely on the remaining inertia from its pre-deindustrialization era.And don't bring up SpaceX as a counterargument. The various stories and shared experiences I've seen on forums like NASA Spaceflight perfectly validate the issues mentioned above. The problem with U.S. STEM talent is even larger than I initially thought. From NASA to SpaceX, many of the mistakes being made are fundamental errors that shouldn't occur at all.Without delving into all the details, just look into the backstory of those vertical liquid oxygen/methane storage tanks at the SpaceX Starship launch site. Understanding that saga alone reveals why I claim that even SpaceX lacks qualified blue-collar workers and R&D designers, especially those with genuine engineering experience. In a nutshell, the entire process, from start to finish, has been characterized by a series of improvisations and questionable decisions.
All of this comes at a cost. It manifests as the enormous expenses and significant uncertainties that startups, or any commercial space company, face when trying to transform research achievements into viable products. This leads to project delays and severely strains cash flow.Currently, within the U.S. corporate landscape, the companies with the strongest industrial capabilities are arguably Tesla and SpaceX. The fact that Tesla survived to this day is, to be frank, 100% due to the Shanghai Gigafactory saving Musk. Without it, Musk would have gone bankrupt in 2019. At that time, Musk was being targeted in the U.S. and couldn't raise a single cent. The funds to build the Tesla factory in China came from low-interest loans provided by the Chinese government. Furthermore, the construction from start to production took only about a year. Musk essentially secured billions from China largely on the strength of his reputation.SpaceX, considered the most capable aerospace company in the U.S., also routinely experiences project delays (look at the Crew Dragon, Falcon Heavy, and Starship – all were delayed).Therefore, other companies face even greater difficulties. Due to inefficient execution, costs inevitably balloon, ultimately rendering the entire commercialization endeavor unfeasible because no one can afford to foot the bill.
Not really. The way the sector works is you have companies, with subcontractors, and those also have subcontractors. ULA gets hydrolox engines from Rocketdyne and Blue Origin. And you can bet a lot of work on the engines is in turn also subcontracted.
Did you know SpaceX subcontracts the construction of turbopumps in their engines? They are not 100% vertically integrated as some would like you to believe.
China's state-owned rocket engine enterprises also have numerous supporting supply chain companies (hundreds or even thousands). I'm referring to the finished engine product, which involves intellectual property rights (the core issue is whether the IP belongs to the enterprise or the state).Previously, under NASA-led projects, the R&D results primarily belonged to the state because the state funded the projects and required companies (suppliers) to deliver compliant products. All R&D costs were borne by the state (essentially, the state provided the money, companies provided the personnel and facilities, and billed the state). Therefore, the actual intellectual property resided entirely with NASA (the government). However, this model had a problem: the government bore all the risk. The government paid for results—it demanded that the goal be achieved, but the timeline could be flexible.This is precisely what led to the issue of non-fixed-cost contracts for programs like SLS (in essence, both the project and its resulting IP belonged to the state; companies were merely manufacturers. The design was state-owned, and assessment was state-conducted. So when design problems arose—due to excessive difficulty—the manufacturer bore no responsibility. To complete the project, continuous additional investment was necessary).NASA's current reform, shifting from non-fixed-cost contracts to fixed-price contracts, fundamentally changes the model. Instead of the state providing project-specific fiscal funding to acquire the IP of technological achievements, the state no longer oversees the project approval or acceptance of the technology itself (companies determine the feasible solutions independently). The state is purchasing launch services from private companies. It does not advance funds or acquire the resulting technology IP; that part is the company's voluntary investment. Thus, the concept of non-fixed-cost contracts disappears.Do you understand? Private companies compete with each other. Once NASA changes its payment method and relinquishes ownership of the technology, it loses the ability to coordinate the use of one company's technology in another's product. Previously, NASA held the IP, so it could authorize its use across different projects as it saw fit. But now, without ownership, NASA would have to pay a significant premium to incentivize cooperation between companies (which is highly cost-ineffective; unless there's a long-term, stable partnership, companies will inevitably lose money). This is the true sorrow of NASA and the U.S. space program, and a primary reason why I dare to predict the U.S. will lose its lead in about a decade.Does NASA understand this? Perfectly clearly. But it has no choice but to select this path because the model where it owns the technology has become completely unviable. This is due to U.S. deindustrialization and the shortage of STEM talent (hence the current state of SLS, and that's with an experienced company like Boeing—startups would find it even harder to solve such problems). Therefore, it is forced to choose the service-procurement-only model.
 

SlothmanAllen

Senior Member
Registered Member
New Glenn just beat ZQ-3 for the second reusable rocket in the world. The booster landed just a few seconds ago.
Now the question becomes can they scale the pace at which they are able to launch rockets. Regardless, I think the era of SpaceX dominating LEO might be coming to end. You have Rocket Lab and ZQ-3 upcoming that both have promising reusable first stages.

Very impressive to do that on the first attempt!
 

TheRathalos

New Member
Registered Member
Sorry for ZQ-3, why so many delays... :rolleyes:
Maiden launch vs Second launch, not really comparable. There may have been some misplaced expectations if one thought ZQ-3 beating it was more than an unlikely possibility, also, fighting for second place isn't glorious, especially when landspace already has its own global firsts...

Also some point of reference:
Blue Origin started development of New Glenn before Landspace was even founded, in that time the later developed 3 (and a half) launchers
The total development cost of new glenn is over $10B, Landspace has raised in total RMB 3.5B, 1/20th of that.
Blue origin has over 11,000 employees while landspace has 1,000.
 

Michael90

Senior Member
Registered Member
Maiden launch vs Second launch, not really comparable. There may have been some misplaced expectations if one thought ZQ-3 beating it was more than an unlikely possibility, also, fighting for second place isn't glorious, especially when landspace already has its own global firsts...

Also some point of reference:
Blue Origin started development of New Glenn before Landspace was even founded, in that time the later developed 3 (and a half) launchers
The total development cost of new glenn is over $10B, Landspace has raised in total RMB 3.5B, 1/20th of that.
Blue origin has over 11,000 employees while landspace has 1,000.
Wow….how come US companies have so much capital available to them compared to their peers? I didn’t think the difference will be so large
 
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