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[ChineseToTheBone]

On that note: Tejas Chief Designer? Dr Kota says they can do 5th gen AND 6TH GEN UNMANNED AIRCRAFT if the government decides we can do full production. Time stamped

Haha nice you saw my post on /r/IndianDefense.
Honestly surprised that IDRW scrapped that given how few responses there were.
https://www.reddit.com/r/IndianDefense/comments/1m5z7uo
I have been doing some amateur research on the squadron size situation of the Indian Air Force recently and definitely had a double take when the chief designer of that aircraft started bragging.
I feel like the introduction of stealthy wingman as lower cost planes is definitely going to make certain nations overestimate their aeronautic, autonomous, and data link capabilities in the coming years. Certainly not every flying wing can be immediately counted as next generation, including the likes of the German FCAS CCA that is just on paper and the end result of the Indian SWiFT UAV.

 

[4Tran]

They could still it as a defense plane right, Shoot down incoming missiles and stuff but yeah even for a2g its not gonna be good compared to others they already have?
Maybe its a 'cost' concern aka cheaper to operate tejas hours vs others.

I'm not sure that Tejas is all that much cheaper to operate than something more suited to India's needs. And the Indian military has a huge budget - putting some of that into operating its fighter planes would seem to be a very good usage of that money and a bit of difference in costs shouldn't make that much difference.

The more important part though is, is the Tejas really a good defense plane for India? Its two potential opponents are Pakistan and China. We know now that both of these airforces are going to prioritize BVR combat so the only defensive aircraft that are of any use are going to be ones that are really good at BVR combat. I doubt that Tejas, both current and future ones, are going to be particularly proficient at that. Moreover, just look at a map of India: it's a huge country and you need planes with a lot of range to cover it properly. Sure, if India didn't have money and couldn't afford better planes than a light fighter is better than nothing at all. But that's not where India is anymore, and more importantly, it's not where they should be positioning the IAF.

 

[Atomicfrog]

I'm not sure that Tejas is all that much cheaper to operate than something more suited to India's needs. And the Indian military has a huge budget - putting some of that into operating its fighter planes would seem to be a very good usage of that money and a bit of difference in costs shouldn't make that much difference.

The more important part though is, is the Tejas really a good defense plane for India? Its two potential opponents are Pakistan and China. We know now that both of these airforces are going to prioritize BVR combat so the only defensive aircraft that are of any use are going to be ones that are really good at BVR combat. I doubt that Tejas, both current and future ones, are going to be particularly proficient at that. Moreover, just look at a map of India: it's a huge country and you need planes with a lot of range to cover it properly. Sure, if India didn't have money and couldn't afford better planes than a light fighter is better than nothing at all. But that's not where India is anymore, and more importantly, it's not where they should be positioning the IAF.

Forget capabilities, cost, budget... The plan was to start up India aerospace industry with a light fighter project to replace their light fighters. Build up on that base after mastering it to get indigenous medium or heavy fighters, etc. Project hits multiple walls ( Kaveri and tech transfer fiasco, unachievable overhype ) and the project became a pile of rubbish hard to build on....

In a way , it was the perfect project for India when they started it. It was what was needed on the engineering and logistics side of things.

 

[siegecrossbow]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1948731143685054861

Are they not interested in how the victorious Air Force actually trains?

 

[4Tran]

Forget capabilities, cost, budget... The plan was to start up India aerospace industry with a light fighter project to replace their light fighters. Build up on that base after mastering it to get indigenous medium or heavy fighters, etc. Project hits multiple walls ( Kaveri and tech transfer fiasco, unachievable overhype ) and the project became a pile of rubbish hard to build on....

In a way , it was the perfect project for India when they started it. It was what was needed on the engineering and logistics side of things.

At the time, replacing MiG-21s with a similar light fighter seemed like a good idea as well, but that was 40 years ago. Things change, and it only makes sense to change your plans at the same time, but India seems to be far too easily carried by momentum to properly reflect on where they are. The idea of indigenous design is fundamentally sound, but you go about it properly. The problem with India is that they want to fly before they can walk and refuse to build up the fundamentals of an aerospace industry.
If they were serious about it, then they should either try to build an indigenous 4.5 gen fighter, or at least try to copy one of the planes they already have.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1948731143685054861

Are they not interested in how the victorious Air Force actually trains?

To be fair, Qatar might not be fond of India jumping into Israel's bed.

 

[AlexYe]

Haha nice you saw my post on /r/IndianDefense.

Oh I didnt know it was posted there too, Someone had posted uncaptioned link in a twitter thread.

definitely had a double take when the chief designer of that aircraft started bragging.

Yeah That was wild, I think when he meant 'scale' model, I really did think he meant like 'plamo' scale models, desk sized

I'm not sure that Tejas is all that much cheaper to operate than something more suited to India's needs.

I tried to look up operation hours cost of tejas and couldnt find anything good, one said $4000 but one can be sure it be atleast cheaper to operate vs Su30/Rafales right?
lets say indian pilot do like modest 120 hours per year (although there is a quora post that says 200-300 hours)
But those cost per hour operation per pilot is gonna be way different between platforms right, plus apart from its engine they can repairs and other stuff locally(for tejas)

is the Tejas really a good defense plane for India?

At the very least it should shoot down ballistic missiles and drones.
But looking at India's inventory i dont think they have a choice, like look

They are just retiring mig21 in september this year now, Mig29- mirages, and those jaguars are hella old too. Thats 224 planes.
Being a big country they gotta keep up the squadron levels so what they do? they fill in the numbers with tejas, For the real fights they will use su30/Rafales.
In december 2024 india bought 12 su30ks for $1.6 billion, now imagine having to replace 200+ fighters by buying it from other country.
it be like $30-40bn.
Like with the Arjun tank, its something to fill in the numbers, use when/where its useful but for where it really matters they use T90S.
Just fill the numbers with tejas, keep local defense companies happy/under the table kickbacks.

 

[simonov]

India is expected to issue a tender this year for acquiring 114 multi-role combat aircraft, according to two sources cited by Reuters. This initiative is part of a modernization effort for the Indian Air Force that dates back nearly two decades. The objective is to bolster a fleet currently reduced to 31 fighter squadrons, mainly composed of Russian or Soviet-origin aircraft, even as neighboring China rapidly expands its air capabilities and Pakistan also benefits from Chinese support. Analysts emphasize that India needs to fill its combat aircraft shortfall as quickly as possible, given that the approved operational requirement stands at 42 squadrons.

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[4Tran]

Oh I didnt know it was posted there too, Someone had posted uncaptioned link in a twitter thread.

Yeah That was wild, I think when he meant 'scale' model, I really did think he meant like 'plamo' scale models, desk sized

I tried to look up operation hours cost of tejas and couldnt find anything good, one said $4000 but one can be sure it be atleast cheaper to operate vs Su30/Rafales right?
lets say indian pilot do like modest 120 hours per year (although there is a quora post that says 200-300 hours)
But those cost per hour operation per pilot is gonna be way different between platforms right, plus apart from its engine they can repairs and other stuff locally(for tejas)

At the very least it should shoot down ballistic missiles and drones.
But looking at India's inventory i dont think they have a choice, like look
View attachment 156807
They are just retiring mig21 in september this year now, Mig29- mirages, and those jaguars are hella old too. Thats 224 planes.
Being a big country they gotta keep up the squadron levels so what they do? they fill in the numbers with tejas, For the real fights they will use su30/Rafales.
In december 2024 india bought 12 su30ks for $1.6 billion, now imagine having to replace 200+ fighters by buying it from other country.
it be like $30-40bn.
Like with the Arjun tank, its something to fill in the numbers, use when/where its useful but for where it really matters they use T90S.
Just fill the numbers with tejas, keep local defense companies happy/under the table kickbacks.

I doubt that it's a very good idea to buy hundreds of a plane that's only good for intercepting missiles and drones. For that kind of numbers, you'll want a fighter that's at least capable of taking on other fighters. Just getting lots of a plane that doesn't suit India's needs just doesn't make any sense. I'm skeptical about how good Tejas Mk1a and Mk2 are going to be, but I think makes sense to acquire them in limited numbers. But hundreds? That's just wrecking India's chance of building a competitve air force. I'm also not convinced that they're going to be particularly cheap either.

To be fair, there really aren't all that many good alternatives for India. They need a good medium fighter, and the best choices seem to be the F-16 and the J-10. Obviously the J-10 is out of the question, and as India has superpower ambitions, the way that the Americans control the weapons they sell makes the F-16 (or any other American plane) a bad match. Maybe the Gripen? It's pretty decent, but lately the price for these seems to have gone through the roof. Maybe the Typhoon? Again it should do fine, and it's expensive, but it might be a better deal than a Gripen. I doubt India would even look at the KF-21, but that might be a decent choice.

At the end of the day though, there's always the lingering fear that 4th gen fighters are just too vulnerable to Chinese kill chains. And as Pakistan gets more Chinese gear, the IAF might not have a way out.

 

[gelgoog]

Tejas Mk 2 should have roughly similar capabilities to Gripen NG. Assuming they ever get it to work that is.

 

[Rafi]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1948731143685054861

Are they not interested in how the victorious Air Force actually trains?

sources within the PM and specifically the PAF say the IAF wanted PAF personnel on secondment to the QaAF to be removed from participation in the exercise, the Qataris refused, the Indians wouldn’t budge, so the Qataris cancelled the exercise.

Apparently in the international community the joke is, the IAF has PAF phobia lol.