Infantry Combat Equipment (non-firearm): Vests, Body Armor, NVGs, etc.

[drowingfish]

I wonder if it just a mid level NCO training problem , meaning the sergeants and staff sergeants , who at this point is about 10 to 15 years in service are not familiar with body armor when they were a private.
Since the type 19 is basicly the first time body armor has been introduced widely to all PLA units instead just the selective units.

I dont know these guys dont look like just regular infantry, likely elite unit as well or marines. Overall there is no shortage of examples of the PLA just lacking basic knowledge of these new gear. I do suspect it is an NCO problem, not being able to keep up with the changes in equipment, and the changes have been quite drastic in the last decade compared to the decade prior to that. PLAAF and PLAN seems to be doing better in this department because they have highly skilled and specialized people. PLA is going to take much longer, especially in the personal gear department where they were never very good in.

As soldiers spend more time using their gear, they typically become more familiar and will pick up little tricks here and there to adapt to it better. that knowledge will slowly permeates the ranks and you'll see improvement in their turn out. This dynamic will play out on its own because let's face it, soldiers want to use their gear better because it is a pain the the a$$ in the field when you dont know your gear.

 

[zlixOS]

I dont know these guys dont look like just regular infantry, likely elite unit as well or marines. Overall there is no shortage of examples of the PLA just lacking basic knowledge of these new gear. I do suspect it is an NCO problem, not being able to keep up with the changes in equipment, and the changes have been quite drastic in the last decade compared to the decade prior to that. PLAAF and PLAN seems to be doing better in this department because they have highly skilled and specialized people. PLA is going to take much longer, especially in the personal gear department where they were never very good in.

As soldiers spend more time using their gear, they typically become more familiar and will pick up little tricks here and there to adapt to it better. that knowledge will slowly permeates the ranks and you'll see improvement in their turn out. This dynamic will play out on its own because let's face it, soldiers want to use their gear better because it is a pain the the a$$ in the field when you dont know your gear.

One way to speed up the process is to open up the Great Firewall so that these buffoons can see how to put on a plate carrier correctly as they watch flannel daddy shoot his guns.

Another is to send off a couple thousand soldiers to muck around in Afghanistan and have a few of them get swamped in the process, incentivizing competency (may completely backfire of course).

I'm not actually sure that the problem will self-correct; it has already been 4 years since Type-21 and 6 since Type-19 --- enough time for two rounds of dewy-eyed privates to see new gear as their first gear --- yet much of the same problems persist as from day one. And the PLA inherently doesn't have the foundational combat experience necessary to turn a private first class into a clear-minded NCO.

I think the best option is to hire foreign trainers from NATO militaries or something like that in a meaningful quantity. We've seen that kind of espionage in the PLAAF but not so much in the PLAGF.

 

[James Zhen]

I wonder if it just a mid level NCO training problem , meaning the sergeants and staff sergeants , who at this point is about 10 to 15 years in service are not familiar with body armor when they were a private.
Since the type 19 is basicly the first time body armor has been introduced widely to all PLA units instead just the selective units.

Training is the issue. I am sure others on the forum who knows even more can testify and I am in no means disrespecting the PLA/PAP but issues like these persists because there is an lack of exposure to training and familiarization to gear and equipment.

Yu once shared an example of an unit he was training refused to issue out inexpensive CAT tourniquets to soldiers because those in the leadership didn't see the need for the soldiers to be trained or familiarized with them.

Funnily enough, Yu who I’d argue was one of the driving force behind pushing for greater exposure to Western-style tactics and training within the PLA/PAP, particularly those emphasizing individual skills, gear, and equipment. Eventually stopped offering training courses to other units. One of the major reasons was the persistent institutional stubbornness he faced.

Another few examples I can recall are these:

PD Designer (former airborne? or still active service) talking about how airborne forces would stowaway their IFAKs in their assault packs instead of mounting it on their vests. Enforced by the leadership to keep uniformity.

The Commander of Jiaolong calling a Jiaolong operator a western spy/throwing an fit because the Jiaolong operator decided to purchase better fitting plate carrier than the single-size gongfa Type 21 vest.

When the Type 19s were issued there were complaints about how the "zippers would fall off" when in reality, the zippers are designed to be quickly pulled off as a fast-release mechanism for medical aid. (Granted, it's a very stupid design choice and I am very glad the Type 21s just have normal zippers)

When the Type 19/21 boots was being issued, some soldiers talked about how even their Squad Leaders didn't know how to adjust the laces.

The attack on Mali and the soldiers wearing the Type 04B vest and QGF03s helmets the other way around. (Keep in mind, these peacekeepers have to go through selection.)

It's a real shame that the PLA/PAP still hasn't institutionalized a sense of professionalism for gear and training. China has the logistic, the brains and the people who, like Yu who would happily help.

 

[by78]

Training is the issue. I am sure others on the forum who knows even more can testify and I am in no means disrespecting the PLA/PAP but issues like these persists because there is an lack of exposure to training and familiarization to gear and equipment.

Yu once shared an example of an unit he was training refused to issue out inexpensive CAT tourniquets to soldiers because those in the leadership didn't see the need for the soldiers to be trained or familiarized with them.

Funnily enough, Yu who I’d argue was one of the driving force behind pushing for greater exposure to Western-style tactics and training within the PLA/PAP, particularly those emphasizing individual skills, gear, and equipment. Eventually stopped offering training courses to other units. One of the major reasons was the persistent institutional stubbornness he faced.

Another few examples I can recall are these:

PD Designer (former airborne? or still active service) talking about how airborne forces would stowaway their IFAKs in their assault packs instead of mounting it on their vests. Enforced by the leadership to keep uniformity.

The Commander of Jiaolong calling a Jiaolong operator a western spy/throwing an fit because the Jiaolong operator decided to purchase better fitting plate carrier than the single-size gongfa Type 21 vest.

When the Type 19s were issued there were complaints about how the "zippers would fall off" when in reality, the zippers are designed to be quickly pulled off as a fast-release mechanism for medical aid. (Granted, it's a very stupid design choice and I am very glad the Type 21s just have normal zippers)

When the Type 19/21 boots was being issued, some soldiers talked about how even their Squad Leaders didn't know how to adjust the laces.

The attack on Mali and the soldiers wearing the Type 04B vest and QGF03s helmets the other way around. (Keep in mind, these peacekeepers have to go through selection.)

It's a real shame that the PLA/PAP still hasn't institutionalized a sense of professionalism for gear and training. China has the logistic, the brains and the people who, like Yu who would happily help.

The problems we see today are likely a direct result of recruiting deficiencies over a very long period of time. These deficiencies are probably by design, namely the leadership's conscious decision to prioritize absorbing rural and urban youths from low socioeconomic backgrounds over that of recruit quality. I suspect most recruits are on the wrong side of the bell curve, and many by significant margins. Today's NCOs in charge of training were once peasant recruits who learned the old ways from the peasants who came before them. They will never be mentally equipped to handle modern equipment and tactics, much less training young recruits. The blind teaching the blind, what could go wrong? I wonder if the PLAGF and the PAP test the aptitude of recruits using standardized tests similar to ASVAB. Judging by my interactions with a former PAP, he would have failed the ASVAB hard and been told to go home. If the PLAGF/PAP aren't testing for aptitude, they had better start soon.

 

[FriedRiceNSpice]

The problems we see today are likely a direct result of recruiting deficiencies over a very long period of time. These deficiencies are probably by design, namely the leadership's conscious decision to prioritize absorbing rural and urban youths from low socioeconomic backgrounds over that of recruit quality. I suspect most recruits are on the wrong side of the bell curve, and many by significant margins.

That is true for most modern day armies though. The infantry is literally composed of the dumbest of the dumb. It is up to the weapons/gear designer to take that into account.

 

[by78]

That is true for most modern day armies though. The infantry is literally composed of the dumbest of the dumb. It is up to the weapons/gear designer to take that into account.

Yes, it's probably/likely true for most militaries today, but most definitely not true for modern militaries capable of waging modern wars (USMC excepted, haha).

 

[by78]

Yu once shared an example of an unit he was training refused to issue out inexpensive CAT tourniquets to soldiers because those in the leadership didn't see the need for the soldiers to be trained or familiarized with them.

What? This is just incredible. It seems the prevailing institutional attitude remains such that grunts are regarded as disposable, to be casually thrown away in human wave attacks. By the way, do you have any information on PLAGF/PAP's basic medical training?

 

[pikusharp1]

The Commander of Jiaolong calling a Jiaolong operator a western spy/throwing an fit because the Jiaolong operator decided to purchase better fitting plate carrier than the single-size gongfa Type 21 vest.

Type 21 vest is single size? It makes so much sense now. The story of not wanting to issue 5 usd max tourniquet is pure insanity.

 

[totenchan]

I wonder if it just a mid level NCO training problem , meaning the sergeants and staff sergeants , who at this point is about 10 to 15 years in service are not familiar with body armor when they were a private.
Since the type 19 is basicly the first time body armor has been introduced widely to all PLA units instead just the selective units.

This is a known issue

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[totenchan]

The problems we see today are likely a direct result of recruiting deficiencies over a very long period of time. These deficiencies are probably by design, namely the leadership's conscious decision to prioritize absorbing rural and urban youths from low socioeconomic backgrounds over that of recruit quality. I suspect most recruits are on the wrong side of the bell curve, and many by significant margins. Today's NCOs in charge of training were once peasant recruits who learned the old ways from the peasants who came before them. They will never be mentally equipped to handle modern equipment and tactics, much less training young recruits. The blind teaching the blind, what could go wrong? I wonder if the PLAGF and the PAP test the aptitude of recruits using standardized tests similar to ASVAB. Judging by my interactions with a former PAP, he would have failed the ASVAB hard and been told to go home. If the PLAGF/PAP aren't testing for aptitude, they had better start soon.

Your inability to approach this topic in a calm and objective way is confusing considering that the information you are reacting to has been floating around for years and decades in some cases. Also, where does this attitude of condescension towards people of low socioeconomic backgrounds come from? "Peasants"? Seriously? Surely you can't think that the PLAGF's training issues is the fault of the conscripts?